08-02-2005, 03:49 PM | #141 | ||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Furthermore, you will need to remember (Mr. Context… ) that at this time violent military struggle was the standard way of solving issues. So its not as if Muhammad defending himself against the Meccans and then uniting the rest of Arabia was some radical shift from the way the world worked then. Its only been done like this since time immemorial. The Jews certainly had a similar history as youll recall from your old testament. Does that make anything that evolved from their religious doctrine inherently violent? Pre-Islamic Arabia was caught up in a vicious cycle of warfare in which tribe fought tribe back and forth and back and forth. After the Meccan battles Muhammad focused on building a PEACEFUL coalition of tribes and achieved victory by an ingenious campaign of NON-violence. When he died in 632, he had almost single handedly brought peace to war torn Arabia. This was a unique event you see… This was Arthurian in nature… Largely unprecedented. And perhaps you have forgotten that the great Byzantine empire was at the very same time that Muhammad was fighting the Meccans pushing its way through Mesopotamia, destroying everything as they went. And this is a CHRISTIAN empire Lief… Gosh what does that tell us about Christianity… The answer is of course… nothing. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-02-2005, 04:13 PM | #142 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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my guess is many muslims in the modern world fall into the same boat and even if they do... interpretation is up to the individual in the end
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08-02-2005, 05:55 PM | #143 | |
Elf Lord
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I don't believe that there are millions of Christians who believe the Bible is not infallible. I believe there is a definite minority that think that. I think the same as regards the Muslims, simply because I don't think that their religion would be nearly as attractive if it didn't tell you what's what, and Islam does appear to be steadily growing. I'd like to see some statistics .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 06:59 PM | #144 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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many people pick and choose their religious beliefs, and it's the good points that defines their faith, as opposed to "it has to be 100% right or it is 100% wrong" i don't know anywhere near as many muslims, and the ones i do are not radical in any way... but people are people, and i'd venture a guess that they are pretty similar
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08-02-2005, 07:32 PM | #145 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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The Arabian tribesmen of the time of Muhammad very strongly believed in ancestor veneration and worship. Muhammad preached that all of these ancestors were in hell, because they had not followed the one God, but had followed many gods. He taught that if people didn't follow Allah, they would be brutally tortured in the afterlife, and he went on to describe those tortures in detail. Now I'm not railing against Muhammad's beliefs. Indeed, it shows a great deal of boldness to me that he'd be willing to preach such things in such a hostile environment as he was in. After this, Muhammad's home tribe, the Quraysh, persecuted him and his followers. They fled and came to Yathrib, in order to mediate a dispute for some Arabian tribesmen. Yathrib was renamed Medina, "The City of the Prophet". In Medina, Muhammad executed many that opposed him, and exiled or enslaved others. Those Jews Muhammad exiled became supporters of the Quraysh, and went to live in an oasis called Kaybar. Their support for the Quraysh was a thorn in Muhammad's side. Medina and Mecca entered into competition then, attempting to get control of the alliances of as many of the surrounding tribes as they could. The Quraysh in Mecca at first had the advantage in this, because of superior trade links. Muhammad ended that by vigorously attacking the Quraysh's and their supporters' caravans, taking many hostage and much plunder. For four years, the Quraysh and the Muslims fought a bloody war over this. According to the Cambridge History of the Islamic World, Muhammad began the war, because the Meccans were pagans. In 628 AD, the two sides formed a truce. Muhammad used the truce to his own advantage, attacking and conquering the Jews of Kaybar, the Quraysh's allies. In 630 BC, he conquered Mecca without bloodshed. At the same time, Muhammad had engaged in many other campaigns and expeditions to conquer and unify other Arabian tribes. Following Muhammad's death, a vast number of the tribes sought to break up. This showed the temporary and violent manner in which he'd patched them together. After Muhammad was dead, they were eager to get away. Abu Bakr, Muhammad's successor, launched another series of military campaigns to get them all under control again. After he succeeded in doing this, he launched raids on the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires. Look, can you not see a history of aggression? It went on after this, it definitely went on. After the Muslims had forged a great empire, they fought two bloody civil wars. According to historians, they almost conquered the world. Was this all defensive? Was Jihad peaceful soul-searching alone? How can you really believe that? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 08:21 PM | #146 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
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However, if Swaggart does think that all Muslim foreign students should be expelled, maybe you're right. I don't know; that's why I wanted to see the context for those other remarks. Quote:
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However, I know that Christians and Jews weren't always treated absolutely horribly in places where the Muslims ruled. Many times they were "simply" treated as second-class citizens, subject to higher taxes, to economic pressure, but not to physical violence. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 08:29 PM | #147 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I see the suicide bombings actually as paralleling historical Muslim attacks. The war against Mecca began with raids on its trade caravans. The attacks on the Sassanid and Byzantine Empires likewise began with Muslim raids on those empires' territory. This current war we are fighting, with its occasional terrorist bombings, in my opinion is following the same pattern. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-02-2005, 08:31 PM | #148 |
Elf Lord
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I'm filling up this thread with debate, and having devoted this entire day to it, am getting very worn out. Thank-you everyone, though, for making this an interesting and enlightening experience . I appreciate it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-24-2005, 03:40 PM | #149 | ||
Quasi Evil
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Oh Rian…
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Well if that isn’t “inciting the populace to hate and anger” I don’t know what is.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-24-2005, 04:15 PM | #150 |
Elf Lord
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Two points I'd like to make on this. I've been keeping up on the issue, also, you understand.
1# I don't see there as anything really wrong about assassinating a country's leader, if that leader is evil or doing evil. For example, our big bombing attempt on Saddam Hussein occurred without an official declaration of war. I just am not sure that it's absolutely morally wrong in all situations. 2# Pat Robertson has since spoken publicly about his comments regarding Venezuela. He says that he is being misunderstood, and that "taking him out" can be done in many ways, including kidnap. He said that he never said, "assassination." Now there are reasons for what Mr. Robertson said concerning Venezuela. I would be interested to hear him give a full explanation of what his views concerning Venezuela are, and how he supports them. The Bush Administration has been quite critical of Venezuela recently, because it has been interfering with the internal affairs of other countries in the region and our Secretary of State has called it "a negative influence."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-24-2005, 04:22 PM | #151 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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08-24-2005, 04:25 PM | #152 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Indeed but then we couldn't even get to Fidel and he's only 90 miles away.
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08-24-2005, 04:27 PM | #153 |
Elf Lord
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A very sad and embarressing bit of bungling that was.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-24-2005, 04:33 PM | #154 |
Elf Lord
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I view those Germans that sought to assassinate Adolf Hitler as heroes.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-24-2005, 04:46 PM | #155 | |
Quasi Evil
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So you are saying Hugo Chavez is the equivilent of Hitler?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-24-2005, 04:51 PM | #156 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-24-2005, 05:00 PM | #157 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 05:33 PM | #158 | ||
Elf Lord
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[QUOTE=Lief Erikson]
1# Quote:
well Lief, ... hello by the way, i'm not sure we have directly posted together before, so hello! ... also Earniel says you are a great - or were? - a great RPG player ... ) ...well, Lief, Quote:
now seriously, do not get me wrong, i am not doubting you here ... but i must say from the quote above .. i am concerned that ANY genuine Christian can in any way advocate killing or assassinating any other human ... to me, this goes against the very word and thought and clear instruction of God ... no matter what our everyday personal or Society's world view may be at any given time. again, i say, please do not take this wrong way ... but i must say i am suprised to hear you, of all people, say that... surely, as i understand it, it cannot squareup in any way with the ...even, basic ten commandments? I am not in anyway saying you do not truly beleive, i do not know you .. and from what i do know, i'm sure you are true ... but i am most suprised to hear you saying we can go against the word of God and pick and choose on any personal level as individuals, who we, above his authuority and teachings, ... at our own will, can or should decide ... or supporting any such decision on who should live or die, ... as a human being, upsurping and ignoring the clear instruction and beleif in GOD! To me, this does not square up ... thou shall not kill ... at the day of judgment you will be weighed up ... to no other will but our God's shall thy be weighed against, do not make false idols ... nor presume to weigh all things to a nicety in my name ... etc ... you get the point .. even if i winged the exact words, the basic premise is there set in gospel. so, i am semi-ignorant of many of the exact Christian core belielfs, and do not make any issues out of any of them, for one very clear thing and central belief, it is not my place to do so ... but like i say, i am most suprised to hear you advocating a human being, no matter who, esp on political or propaganda grounds should or could morally be killed ... i fear for all christians if that is the approach... God says, do not kill, turn the other cheek, i will ultimately judge all... do you then suppose to put yourself above the word of God and make a personal unilatteral (as a christian) decision that we can therefore person by person, piecemeal, make a decision who we should KILL, ASSASINATE etc???? Tome.that seems both wrong in terms of christianity and in,from what i have very loosely learnt about your good self, not to be right. i look forward to your response ... and again re-iterate this is in no way an attack .. merely just out of total suprise and curiosity HOW a christian can advocate killing someone on human political grounds, yet least in terms of any christian stand-point? As i say i only write this out of suprise and through not understanding how this can square up with the teachings of christ ... not his humanwritten and human led church. Finally, i wish to repeat: i am not having a go, nor wishing to cause any offence whatever, but am genuinely concerned how this could possibly be a christian approach?? My very best to you, though, and looking forward to you sharing your thoughts BB |
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08-24-2005, 06:01 PM | #159 | |
Elf Lord
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Hello, Butterbeer . It's a great pleasure to meet you, and I assure you that in no way at all do I consider your post an attack. I find your surprise and opinion quite understandable too. I will certainly explain myself.
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I'll respond to your post very soon. I have to go for a little trip first, to help my mother unload some boxes and stuff at a nearby place . . . will be back soon .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-24-2005, 06:22 PM | #160 |
Elf Lord
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I'm working on my response to your post now. However, I'm going to make my response in the "Theology" thread. The discussion seems to fit in more there than here.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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