Why you believe what you believe I

[Rían]

I'm trying to catch up, and enjoying all the posts and thoughts that went on while I was camping IT rained on the camping trip, tho, and I have the sniffles, and am a little fuzzy-brained - it'll take me a bit to process all those posts.

1. One quick question, tho - I forget if you said you considered yourself a Christian or not - do you? If so, why? (forgive me if you already answered that - I have to go catch up on your posts!)

[Nurvingiel]

No worries RÃ*an. I am Christian, Anglican in fact.

I hope you get better soon.

[Rían]

2. And the second question - why do you say you're a Christian? IOW, were you born one (like you were born with a certain hair color), or did something happen to make you one (like you are a student at your uni because you applied for it and were accepted), or what? Could you please explain why you say you're a Christian

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

When we die, I believe we will go to heaven. I have to go soon, but I can get into this more later.

I hope you won't go to heaven soon (at least for our sakes ) I hope you'll be with us many more years

Originally Posted by Nurvi

*sniff* Rian would be proud, I can hear snoring!

Originally Posted by Nurvi

However, we also know that God did intend people to be gay, because God made many people that way (details follow).

Well, hroom, hroom ...

1. I am selfish and lazy
2. God made me
3. Therefore : God intended me to be selfish and lazy.

Do you agree with my conclusion? (#3) Or do you think that there is something more going on here, esp. with the meaning of the words "made" and "intended"?

I agree that any in-depth discussion of homosexuality should definitely be moved over to the Gay/Les thead, but as long as it doesn't dominate here, or if it can be applied to other areas of your beliefs, then it can stay

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

About the Bible in general, I feel that its not only a holy symbol for all Christians, but also a social commentary on the times in which it was written. This provides context for the religious teachings. I think it's important to understand a bit about the lives and living conditions of the people who wrote the Bible - for example, I believe this is the significance of Numbers.

3. Do you believe that the Bible has any practical, day-to-day use in your life today? If so, what, and why should it? If not, why not, and should it?

4. What is the significance about Numbers? I don't get what you're saying there

5. If you think God is behind the creation of the Bible in any way, what do you think His purposes were in giving the Bible to us?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

1. I am selfish and lazy
2. God made me
3. Therefore : God intended me to be selfish and lazy.

Do you agree with my conclusion? (#3) Or do you think that there is something more going on here, esp. with the meaning of the words "made" and "intended"?

I think God made people a certain way but knew that they could grow and improve in life. If you view that God made me this way to begin with so this how I'm meant to be then their is no point in improving at all and trying to be a better person.

[inked]

TD,
Well said.

Nurvingiel,
Define Christian, please.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Ponder Point 1
Would it be better to have suffering and beauty, or plainness and no suffering? I would be quick to say the former, if it were a little more fairly distributed.

very close to what i was expressing... it's the amount and kind in the world that seems excessive... and the fairly limited amount of direction supplied by any supreme being... or at least clear direction... just look at all the beliefs out there... i can understand a god who would want his creations to make their own choices... but why allow so many conflicting ones to exist?

About what you said later, perhaps Satan is the "equivelant" to an evil pagan God.

this goes a bit to my version where god is in fact either not "all-powerful" or not "good", at least as we define it... it would explain a lot

Ponder Point 2
After all, you can't have good without evil, or can you? Tthere must be some phisolophical analysis behind that).

i've never quite bought this... i think good and evil are relative... if food was very hard to come by throughout the world any kind of meal, even a bad one, would be a "good" thing

in suburban america, the idea of not having food at all is rare for most... so "good" and "bad" are not so much having or not having... but whether you are stuck eating mac 'n cheese for dinner or a nice steak

a "good" person in the first example might give some of his own rice to a needy child... a "good" person in the second example might buy his neighbors a turkey dinner for thanksgiving... but is one any more "morally good" than the other?

this is what i mean by relative... outside of some magical world where every wish immediately appeared in front of you, any existance, no matter how easy, would have things you strive for and ways in which you can help other people... what i'm saying is you don't need thousands of dying children to appreciate life... the same morals could be just as easily reinforced on a much smaller scale... possibly even better, because you would not have the "numbing effect" that the magnitude of suffering in the world can have on people

[Nurvingiel]

I just spent half an hour writing a post, then I accidentally clicked on the Entmoot banner, and then the computer wouldn't go back to it.

I'll write it again later........

[Nurvingiel]

This is a little shorter than what I originally wrote, but at least I did it in Word this time.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I hope you won't go to heaven soon (at least for our sakes ) I hope you'll be with us many more years

Lol, I meant I had to log off Entmoot, not life! But I think you picked up on that.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And the second question - why do you say you're a Christian? IOW, were you born one (like you were born with a certain hair color), or did something happen to make you one (like you are a student at your uni because you applied for it and were accepted), or what? Could you please explain why you say you're a Christian

This ties in with Inked’s question about the definition of Christianity.

I think anyone who believes in one God, and that Jesus is the Son of God, is a Christian. There are other monotheistic religions, but I think only Christianity believes Jesus is the Son of God.

You are not born into a religion, however your parents will often raise you in their religion if they practice one. You can choose your religion (or to not believe in God), but you can’t choose your parents or where you live in the world (at least, not where you’re born, which affects your life.)

I’m Christian because both my parents are Anglican, and I was raised that way. I haven’t seen anything in my life to make me not want to be Anglican (or Christian). In fact, I’ve seen wonderful things that strengthen my beliefs.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Well, hroom, hroom ...

1. I am selfish and lazy
2. God made me
3. Therefore : God intended me to be selfish and lazy.

Do you agree with my conclusion? (#3) Or do you think that there is something more going on here, esp. with the meaning of the words "made" and "intended"?

I agree that any in-depth discussion of homosexuality should definitely be moved over to the Gay/Les thead, but as long as it doesn't dominate here, or if it can be applied to other areas of your beliefs, then it can stay

I realized you used this simplified reasoning to prove your point – that there is something more going on. I agree with Telcontar, who put it very well. (You all know by now that I don’t regard being gay as a flaw or sin that needs to be corrected. We can go into more detail in the “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual� thread if anyone wants… hijack! )

As a side note, your example reminded me of this type of reasoning:

1. Bob likes pie
2. Bob is a jerk
3. Therefore : people who like pie are jerks.

1 and 2 have nothing to do with each other, so 3 cannot be inferred from them. In your example, I believe that God gave us free will. If we choose to be selfish and lazy that’s our own affair. I think God cares about us, but every minute detail of our lives is probably not important in the grand scheme of things.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Do you believe that the Bible has any use in your life today? If so, what, and why should it? If not, why not, and should it?

I think it does have a purpose, but I need to read the Bible in its entirety first.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What is the significance about Numbers? I don't get what you're saying there

I only read part of it, but it described the number of people in each tribe. I thought that this would serve to outline the social context of the events described in the Bible, and/or the people who wrote it.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

If you think God is behind the creation of the Bible in any way, what do you think His purposes were in giving the Bible to us?

I think God either caused events described in the Bible, or influenced the people who wrote it. (The nature of that influence, I’m not sure. But I imagine it could take many forms.) The purpose… I will hopefully discover when I read it. (As of yet I have only read parts of the Bible. Kind of like reading only quotes from Tolkien, then trying to determine what exactly Frodo was up to. )

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

a "good" person in the first example might give some of his own rice to a needy child... a "good" person in the second example might buy his neighbors a turkey dinner for thanksgiving... but is one any more "morally good" than the other?

Very interesting Brownie. In this case, I would say no, neither is morally better than the other.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

this is what i mean by relative... outside of some magical world where every wish immediately appeared in front of you, any existance, no matter how easy, would have things you strive for and ways in which you can help other people... what i'm saying is you don't need thousands of dying children to appreciate life... the same morals could be just as easily reinforced on a much smaller scale... possibly even better, because you would not have the "numbing effect" that the magnitude of suffering in the world can have on people

This is what I was getting at with beauty being relative (or whatever I said). Brilliant post! At some point, there is so much suffering that we can’t understand its magnitude or significance. At this point it would have no more influence on our perception of beauty.

[inked]

Nurvingiel,

You would limit Christian to a person who believes in God and that Jesus is the Son of God. Well, to take a page from Wayfarer, I'll need for you to define your terminology . The reason is that Christians have historically defined concepts that are specific about those terms. Subsequent redefinition of those terms do not mean the same.

What, precisely, do you mean?

And to quibble ( ) if the Bible needs be read in its entirety before making statements about it, why have you been making statements about it? . Your impressions, perhaps, but statements? and, does one need be fully read in either Tolkein or Bible to comment? What is the nature of authority on which you (apparently) rely?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurvingiel,

You would limit Christian to a person who believes in God and that Jesus is the Son of God. Well, to take a page from Wayfarer, I'll need for you to define your terminology . The reason is that Christians have historically defined concepts that are specific about those terms. Subsequent redefinition of those terms do not mean the same.

What, precisely, do you mean?

I don't know any historically defined concepts of Christian. Care to share some?

Some terms are hard to define. God is... God. I did go into that in more detail a page or two back though. A son is male offspring. I'm not sure what you want from me here.

And to quibble ( ) if the Bible needs be read in its entirety before making statements about it, why have you been making statements about it? . Your impressions, perhaps, but statements? and, does one need be fully read in either Tolkein or Bible to comment? What is the nature of authority on which you (apparently) rely?

I was a bit unclear earlier, I will elaborate. From reading some of the Bible and/or knowing about it, you can make some statements about the Bible.

However, if you want to make a statement about the meaning of an entire chapter, it helps to have read the entire chapter or the whole Bible, if you're inferring meaning about the whole Bible. It depends what level of depth you want to explore.

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

What are your thoughts on prayer and angels?

[Rían]

6. And to throw in another point to ponder on the question of what makes a Christian - the Bible notes that the demons believe in God, and they believe that Jesus is the Son of God - does that make them Christians?

(more responses later ... )

(and thanks for tackling our questions so thoughtfully! I appreciate it, and am enjoying the discussion, and getting to know you better )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

As a side note, your example reminded me of this type of reasoning:

1. Bob likes pie
2. Bob is a jerk
3. Therefore : people who like pie are jerks.

1 and 2 have nothing to do with each other, so 3 cannot be inferred from them.

But in this example, you jumped from "Bob" to "people". I didn't, in my example.

[inked]

Nuvingiel,

you wrote, "I don't know any historically defined concepts of Christian. Care to share some? "

I do not for a moment accept that dodge! You allege to be Anglican and you have not recited the Creeds?

Now, I too am Anglican, but they made me take Inquirer's classes/Confirmation classes.

You should know some history! 'fess up!!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by inked

Nurvingiel,

You would limit Christian to a person who believes in God and that Jesus is the Son of God.

Even though not directed at me I think I'll reply my thoughts on it.

I wouldn't limit a Christian to this but these beliefs are the bare minimum. Most Christians believe in more than this but they are the Christians basic beliefs.

[Valaru]

Originally Posted by inked

You would limit Christian to a person who believes in God and that Jesus is the Son of God.

also not directed at me, but I want to answer my thoughts as well.

Limited someone to that, no.

But the defention of christian (well practicing christian) is someone who beleives in god, and believes that jesus is the son of god, it's not a limit, but it is a baseline.

To be a christian, you need to have those 2 things.

[Rían]

Hi, Valaru! Welcome to the Moot, and feel free to comment on anything in this thread We're focusing questions on Nurvi right now, but comments from others are welcome. You can take a turn in the "hot seat" later on, if you'd like! The more, the merrier!

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I hope you won't go to heaven soon (at least for our sakes ) I hope you'll be with us many more years



Well, hroom, hroom ...

1. I am selfish and lazy
2. God made me
3. Therefore : God intended me to be selfish and lazy.

Do you agree with my conclusion? (#3) Or do you think that there is something more going on here, esp. with the meaning of the words "made" and "intended"?

I agree that any in-depth discussion of homosexuality should definitely be moved over to the Gay/Les thead, but as long as it doesn't dominate here, or if it can be applied to other areas of your beliefs, then it can stay

About this... I believe it'd be the same to put 'gay' instead of 'selfish and lazy' only if you think gays can change.. and I personally don't think they can. Therefore, if god made you a gay, you'll be a gay to the rest of your life - without a choice, but if you're lazy, you can change, and start helping others...
Unless you think they can?