Blame Fëanor

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Which, come to think of it, is a good thing. Those Valar, braying, incompetent asses, that they were, had been selfishly keeping all the light in the world locked away to themselves. The trees being destroyed was good.

So, Feanor was to blame for at least one good thing.

Sure, that's a way to look at it. But another way is that, instead of rousing the Noldor to rebellion, Fëanor could have used his charisma to do good by rousing those "braying, incompetent asses" into action against Morgoth. So the Valar could've went into action without the Trees having to be destroyed! So...good thing?

[Elemmírë]

Wayfarer, I don't think that's a claim I've ever heard before.

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

so a return trip to ME was too much to ask for?

they seemed to have no problem sticking their noses in when they wanted some company in their little paradise... but when someone wants to leave all the sudden it's a matter of principle

No.

Fëanor never gave the Valar a chance to help him (if indeed they would have). "Why, O people of the Noldor, why should we longer serve the jealous Valar, who cannot keep us nor even their own realm secure from their Enemy? And though he be now their foe, are they and he not of one kin? Vengeance calls me hence, but even were it otherwise I would not dwell longer in the same land with the kin of my father's slayer and of the theif of my treasure..."

And then comes the Oath.

No civility. No diplomacy. No reconciliation. But from Fëanor, what can you really expect?

What, pray tell, are the Valar to do? Never does Fëanor ask for their help, but only throws insults and scorn at them. And after such words, why should they support an adventure doomed to failure and death?

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.

That's true. Manwe decided that they would neither help nor hinder because he knew Feanor already saw the Valar in a bad light, and this was in part because Melkor had slandered them, and part because Melkor was of the same race as them.

[Willow Oran]

Always glad to play devil's advocate.

Anyway...

It was Melkor's lust for Feanor's jewels that caused him to partner with Ungoliant and assault Valinor. So it was Feanor's fault that the trees were destroyed.

This would an example of what not to do when jumping to conclusions. What we see here is the victim being blamed for the wrongdoer's shortcomings. It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations. Desiring to posess everything good for himself is part of Melkor's nature. If the silmarils had never been created it is highly likely that Melkor would have lusted after something else important to the elves/valar and caused just as much grief.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Always glad to play devil's advocate.

Anyway...


This would an example of what not to do when jumping to conclusions. What we see here is the victim being blamed for the wrongdoer's shortcomings. It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations. Desiring to posess everything good for himself is part of Melkor's nature. If the silmarils had never been created it is highly likely that Melkor would have lusted after something else important to the elves/valar and caused just as much grief.

And yet it is irrelevant to argue "could have beens." This is why I at least am being careful not to claim that everything would have been perfect without Fëanor. I believe, like you do, that this is most likely not the case. But that realisation does not make Fëanor any less blameworthy for the things he did do.

Perhaps you are correct in that Fëanor should not be blamed for Morgoth wanting the jewels. However, how much of an effect did Fëanor shutting "the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Eä" have upon Morgoth? Remember that after this Morgorth "saw not his time yet for revenge; but his heard was black with anger."

This was certainly another event that led to the way things eventually fell out, and one entirely of Fëanor's doing.

And yes, devil's advocate is fun.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Let's just say that Feanor acted in haste out of anger. But for his lack of self control in dealing with events and allowing his temper to get the better of him, his choices for handling these situations may have been otherwise.

[Kellquenti]

Still keeping (unusually) quiet. Waiting for another spitefull attack on my Feanorian brothers, ( EL promise I won't get uncontrollably mad again)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Kellquenti

Still keeping (unusually) quiet. Waiting for another spitefull attack on my Feanorian brothers, ( EL promise I won't get uncontrollably mad again)

Oh, I could really get you going Kell.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Always glad to play devil's advocate.

yeah! join the club

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

No civility. No diplomacy. No reconciliation. But from Fëanor, what can you really expect?

What, pray tell, are the Valar to do? Never does Fëanor ask for their help, but only throws insults and scorn at them. And after such words, why should they support an adventure doomed to failure and death?

I agree with TD. Had the Valar helped, they would only have gotten greater blame in the end.

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

[Kellquenti]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Oh, I could really get you going Kell.

Go for it woman!! Try my Wrath

[Minielin]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

It's a very good point.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

Well, they had free will and the Valar could and were only allowed to do so much. Look at it this way: Gandalf could as a maia done much more than he did, but he was forbidden. He did all that he could within the instruction of Iluvatar.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

It is not Feanor's fault that Melkor lsted after his creations.

Well he made them. If he never made them then Melkor would have never lusted them.

[Pytt]

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

but they are THE ALMIGHTY VALAR... shouldn't we hold them to a higher standard? was not their very role, whether expressed or not, to care for arda? should a slight by a mere elf cause them to get all huffy?

I agree with SGH here.

Also, I was not claiming that it was "huffiness" that prevented the Valar from acting. Even if they wanted to, how could they have helped someone who so clearly didn't want help?

Originally Posted by Pytt

But if Feanor not have made them, Melkor could have wanted some other object, and killed for that. Then we could blame Feanor for not making the Sil, so other elfs were getting hurt

Well, had he not made the Silmarilli, we would not have known that he could do such a thing, and thus could not blame him.

[Falagar]

But you must admit that it is unlikely Morgoth would ever have redeemed himself.
If Fëanor's jewels hadn't encouraged him to act swiftly and rasshly I think a far more devious plan would have come into being.

[Count Comfect]

It is quite possible that if Feänor had not existed, bad things would have happened. Things might even have been worse. However, it is important to note that what DID go wrong in the Sil was his fault, in some way shape or form. That has no implication of whether worse things would have happened anyway - just that the SAME things would not have happened.

[Falagar]

Of course - But then again one could say the same for Eru, as I noted above. Or Manwë. I am not denying Fëanor did a whole lot of bad things and must carry a great deal of blame on his shoulders.
However, you can't blame him for what happend because of the things he created - unless you also agree to blame Eru for creating Morgoth, Yavanna for creating the Two Trees (that enhanced Ungoliantë's powers), Aulë for the dwarves, Morgoth for almost everything he created, and so on.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, they had free will and the Valar could and were only allowed to do so much. Look at it this way: Gandalf could as a maia done much more than he did, but he was forbidden. He did all that he could within the instruction of Iluvatar.

i don't remember any specific limitation on the valar as far as taking care of melkor was concerned... something they ended up doing eventually anyway... in fact, they even tried to get him after his crime, but gave up after their initial failure

free will is one thing... but considering the state of grief Fëanor was in they offered very little in terms of counsel

from the sil (after hearing of his father's death):

Then Fëanor ran from the Ring of Doom, and fled into the night; for his father was dearer to him than the Light of Valinor or the peerless works of his hands; and who among sons, of Elves or of Men, have held their fathers of greater worth?

i think the valar let him down... they didn't even attempt to help him