North American Relations

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Originally Posted by nurv

Erm anyway, yes, Adrienne Clarkson is an interesting person. I wonder what she got the Order of Canada for? (It's similar to being made a knight or dame.) That was mentioned at the end of her bio

probably just for being the governer-general, most high posts like that come with beneficial honours, like many top civil servants receive knighthoods [Sir Humphrey Appleby KBE (Yes Minister/BBC TV)]
I think the governor of the channel islands is a Sir, as is the governor of the falklands, IIRC

Originally Posted by nurv

I had no idea she was 66, I thought she was younger. IIRC Paul Martin is 65, and our esteemed former Prime Minister *glares at JD* Jean Chrétien is also 65. I have no idea what that implies. Random observation.

with age comes great wisdom, or should that be with widom comes great age

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

and our esteemed former Prime Minister *glares at JD* Jean Chrétien is also 65.

Don't make me laugh. I think the only reason why he became PM was because people wanted to give somethign to Quebec so they wouldn't satrt with trying to gain independence again. I seriously can't believe that most of canada wanted Chretien as PM.


As for us being leader of the world - we are because no one else will stand up to do anything.

[Nurvingiel]

Bah. Well, calling him an asshole was still uncalled for. I'm still waiting for that retraction...

Just because you didn't like him doesn't mean the majority of Canadians did not. I was too young to vote but I might have. *ponders*

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Bah. Well, calling him an asshole was still uncalled for. I'm still waiting for that retraction...

Has hell frozen over yet?

Just because you didn't like him doesn't mean the majority of Canadians did not. I was too young to vote but I might have. *ponders*

I don't think most Canadians really liked him very much.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Has hell frozen over yet?

You boycotted this thread over changing its name, and you expect me to let that slide? I don't think so. Hell has frozen over, and they're playing ice hockey.

You ask people, fairly, to respect Bush by not stomping effigies of him and such. Well I ask the same of our leaders. Sure, name-calling isn't as bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I draw it there.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I don't think most Canadians really liked him very much.

And yet..... they voted for him. Personally, though I respect Chrétien, I'm not an adamant fan. My boyfriend is a huge fan.

And I will defend him from being called names unfairly. You could fairly call him undiplomatic, but you cannot fairly call him an asshole. There is an important difference.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

You boycotted this thread over changing its name, and you expect me to let that slide? I don't think so. Hell has frozen over, and they're playing ice hockey.

You ask people, fairly, to respect Bush by not stomping effigies of him and such. Well I ask the same of our leaders. Sure, name-calling isn't as bad, but you have to draw the line somewhere. I draw it there.


And yet..... they voted for him. Personally, though I respect Chrétien, I'm not an adamant fan. My boyfriend is a huge fan.

And I will defend him from being called names unfairly. You could fairly call him undiplomatic, but you cannot fairly call him an asshole. There is an important difference.

I was only kidding anyway. I don't like him - but I dont' care about him either. It's the same way I feel about Chirac. I can care less about either one. Chretien was a mini-Chirac..

Oh - as for comparing this to calling bush names - a lot more of that goes on here than calling your pm a name. Asshole is one of the least offensive names Bush has been called here.

[jerseydevil]

BTW LCoU - you're welcome on the links.

[brownjenkins]

now here's your bush action figure...

[Nurvingiel]

Brownie... that isn't for real is it!? No... must be some clever photoshopping.
EDIT: I checked the URL. Holy shnikies batman it's real! Ahahaha!!! That's awesome. I'd be tempted to get one but it's 40 bucks!
But what the hey? Bush was never in the Air Force.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I was only kidding anyway. I don't like him - but I dont' care about him either. It's the same way I feel about Chirac. I can care less about either one. Chretien was a mini-Chirac..

Oh - as for comparing this to calling bush names - a lot more of that goes on here than calling your pm a name. Asshole is one of the least offensive names Bush has been called here.

Chrétien is not a mini-Chirac. Just because they were both French (Québec and France are noticibly different. Even the accents and dialects are different).

Well I'm glad you were only kidding. But I have not disrespected Bush that badly, why should I (or Chrétien) be held accountable for what others say about Bush. We're not going to get anywhere without respect. Why have dialogue at all then?

Also, let's keep it to this thread. Bush hasn't been disrespected that badly in this thread, and even if he was, that still doesn't excuse what you said about Chrétien.

So... *taps foot impatiently*

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Brownie... that isn't for real is it!? No... must be some clever photoshopping.

only $39.99

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

But what the hey? Bush was never in the Air Force.

no, but he played one on TV

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Brownie... that isn't for real is it!? No... must be some clever photoshopping.
EDIT: I checked the URL. Holy shnikies batman it's real! Ahahaha!!! That's awesome. I'd be tempted to get one but it's 40 bucks!
But what the hey? Bush was never in the Air Force.

He's Commander in Chief - which makes him a member of all the armed forces. Anyway - that thing came out after he flew onto the aircraft carrier to honor the troops after the fall of Baghdad. He announed that major combat had ended - which it actually had - and we started the rebuilding process. There was about 70 - 75% approval for the war - so they did a action figure of Bush dressed up in the uniform whne he flew onto the aircraft carrier.

He was also in the air national guard or whatever in Texas.

Chrétien is not a mini-Chirac. Just because they were both French (Québec and France are noticibly different. Even the accents and dialects are different).

So what if their accents are different. I know their accents are different. Who cares - Chretien was a mini-chirac because of his views and negativity toward america.

Well I'm glad you were only kidding. But I have not disrespected Bush that badly, why should I (or Chrétien) be held accountable for what others say about Bush. We're not going to get anywhere without respect. Why have dialogue at all then?

Do YOU really want me to pull out the quotes of what Chretien said about America and Americans while HE was in office?

Also, let's keep it to this thread. Bush hasn't been disrespected that badly in this thread, and even if he was, that still doesn't excuse what you said about Chrétien.

I'm not asking to be excused. Also - I didn't say anything about this thread.

So... *taps foot impatiently*

Keep tapping - that's as much as you get.

[brownjenkins]

here's a good one

the wav files are particularly amusing

call me crazy... but i just think some things shouldn't be reduced to the level of "talking action figure"

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

here's a good one

the wav files are particularly amusing

call me crazy... but i just think some things shouldn't be reduced to the level of "talking action figure"

We live in a free country - and the president had nothing to do with it. YOu can also get bin ladin action figures too. The toy manufacturers can make the action figures if they wish.

As it goes - I don't see how this has anything to do with North American relations - you are just using this to mock Bush.

After looking at this one - I see nothing wrong with it. It's different presidents. p [edit] And I do find the quotes from the earlier presidents as being educational - such as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Lincoln. The quotes chosen for some of the more recent presidents have a lot to be desired though. [/edit]

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

We live in a free country - and the president had nothing to do with it. YOu can also get bin ladin action figures too. The toy manufacturers can make the action figures if they wish.

As it goes - I don't see how this has anything to do with North American relations - you are just using this to mock Bush.

After looking at this one - I see nothing wrong with it. It's different presidents.

i've never been accused of staying on topic... and i think all leaders deserve a health dose of mocking from time to time... keeps 'em grounded... the "action figure" thing just seems silly... but i guess someone must enjoy them

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i've never been accused of staying on topic... and i think all leaders deserve a health dose of mocking from time to time... keeps 'em grounded... the "action figure" thing just seems silly... but i guess someone must enjoy them

I edited this in after you quoted -

And I do find the quotes from the earlier presidents as being educational - such as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Lincoln. The quotes chosen for some of the more recent presidents have a lot to be desired though. I see no problem with the presidency dolls. They aren't action figures - as much as they are talking dolls.

As for mocking - mocking is not constructive in any sense. It does not keep someone grounded - makes people just view you as a sore loser or having displaced anger. Being upset by a policy or something and stating it in a way that is thoughtful - that is constructive. I rutinely make jokes about Clinton - but there were things that Clinton did that I agree with. It seems as if peopel like you don't want to acknowledge anything good Bush does - hence your arguments get watered down and just ignored.

Oh and I have mocked Chirac - just so you can't say I'm hypocritical - I also said that he should just be honest and state that he was against the Iraq war not because it was for humanitarian reasons - but because France had billions of dollars invested in Iraq and it was in France's best interest to keep Hussein in power. I can respect a leader, even if I disagree with them, who says that they are for something or against something because it's in their interest to be so - which France, Germany, China and Russia did not do.

Now it's getting off topic from North American relations and I won't respond any longer to this discussion.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As for mocking - mocking is not constructive in any sense. It does not keep someone grounded - makes people just view you as a sore loser or having displaced anger. Being upset by a policy or something and stating it in a way that is thoughtful - that is constructive. I rutinely make jokes about Clinton - but there were things that Clinton did that I agree with. It seems as if peopel like you don't want to acknowledge anything good Bush does - hence your arguments get watered down and just ignored.

i liked bush senior... but i'll admit i have a hard time finding very many positives with gwb... we'll see how the social security thing goes

on the rest, no anger here... just amusement

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

He's Commander in Chief - which makes him a member of all the armed forces. Anyway - that thing came out after he flew onto the aircraft carrier to honor the troops after the fall of Baghdad. He announed that major combat had ended - which it actually had - and we started the rebuilding process. There was about 70 - 75% approval for the war - so they did a action figure of Bush dressed up in the uniform whne he flew onto the aircraft carrier.

He was also in the air national guard or whatever in Texas.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I always thought the national guard was part of the Army. I did know that he's a member of the army, navy and air force as Commander in Chief, but he's not in the air force in the sense that he can fly a fighter jet.
Or can he? Did he fly the plane onto the aircraft carrier? (If so I'm pretty impressed.)

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So what if their accents are different. I know their accents are different. Who cares - Chretien was a mini-chirac because of his views and negativity toward america.

I was pointing out that there are a lot of differences between Québec and France. Is everyone who has anti-American views and speaks French a mini-Chirac now? Chrétien is his own man, whether you like him or not.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Do YOU really want me to pull out the quotes of what Chretien said about America and Americans while HE was in office?

Alright, that is a good point. Chrétien has been highly critical of Bush, sometimes undiplomatically so, and probably to the point of occasional name calling. Even so, does that mean you should descend to the same level? I expected more from all participants in this thread.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

I'm not asking to be excused. Also - I didn't say anything about this thread.

Keep tapping - that's as much as you get.

I know you're not asking to be excused, but I think you should be. Further, I added the comment about this thread because I think it is sensible to keep the discussion confined to it. We will get nowhere if we go OT (as you rightly pointed out) or drag in greivances from other threads.

Though boycotting seems silly to me (no offence JD), I am actually considering boycotting my own thread. It is pretty much the only rebellious option one has on a message board. You already set the bar over a name change, and I drew the line at name calling.

Respect is important to me in this thread, because I don't want this to become yet another forum for bashing George W. Bush (so watch it Brownie and Chrys, antagonizing JD is not helpful and you fully know what you're doing). This applies to all other leaders discussed in this thread. I want to talk about issues in North America, not participate in another argument which takes shots at one another's countries. There are a fair amount at Entmoot already, and frankly I find them boring. I don't think it's too much to ask for a cessation to name calling, to starter.

I will not have this thread turn into another boring argument, nor will I have it just being a forum in which I concede a series of points to JD. If that's how it ends up then I see no point in my continued participation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Interesting, I didn't know that. I always thought the national guard was part of the Army. I did know that he's a member of the army, navy and air force as Commander in Chief, but he's not in the air force in the sense that he can fly a fighter jet.
Or can he? Did he fly the plane onto the aircraft carrier? (If so I'm pretty impressed.)

he didn't fly the plane onto the air craft carrier. As for the national guard. I posted in one htread recently an explanation of the national guard. The national guard is the individual states military. New Jersey has an airforce, army and navy branch.

New Jersey's Army National Guard
New Jersey's Air National Guard
New Jersey's Department of Military and Veterans Affairs

George Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard and was a pilot and could fly planes.

I was pointing out that there are a lot of differences between Québec and France. Is everyone who has anti-American views and speaks French a mini-Chirac now? Chrétien is his own man, whether you like him or not.

No - just Chretien have I considered a mini-Chirac. Sorry you don't like it - but it's my opinion from watching him while he was in office. I will refrain from calling him that name - but that is my opinion of Chretien. As i said also - I think he was just made PM to appease Quebec anyway.

Alright, that is a good point. Chrétien has been highly critical of Bush, sometimes undiplomatically so, and probably to the point of occasional name calling. Even so, does that mean you should descend to the same level? I expected more from all participants in this thread.

Hence - Chretien in my view was/is a mini-Chirac. He went about denouncing the US and Americans the same way Chirac went about doing it.

I know you're not asking to be excused, but I think you should be. Further, I added the comment about this thread because I think it is sensible to keep the discussion confined to it. We will get nowhere if we go OT (as you rightly pointed out) or drag in greivances from other threads.

Though boycotting seems silly to me (no offence JD), I am actually considering boycotting my own thread. It is pretty much the only rebellious option one has on a message board. You already set the bar over a name change, and I drew the line at name calling.

I said I was just kidding. You can't accept that - not my problem now. I won't apologize for it however.

Respect is important to me in this thread, because I don't want this to become yet another forum for bashing George W. Bush (so watch it Brownie and Chrys, antagonizing JD is not helpful and you fully know what you're doing). This applies to all other leaders discussed in this thread. I want to talk about issues in North America, not participate in another argument which takes shots at one another's countries. There are a fair amount at Entmoot already, and frankly I find them boring. I don't think it's too much to ask for a cessation to name calling, to starter.

That's fine - but you won't find an apology either from me on my comment about Chretien and the mini-Chirac comment. If you support Chirac - then it should be a compliment anyway.

I will not have this thread turn into another boring argument, nor will I have it just being a forum in which I concede a series of points to JD. If that's how it ends up then I see no point in my continued participation.

It's completely up to you as to whether you concede or not. I produce facts - such as in the geography thread - that you are left to concede I'm right. Again =- you said that Chretien wasn't name calling to americans and Bush - when he was - hence that is one of the reasons for the souring of relations between Canada and America while he was in office. You can ignore that if you wish - but his attitude toward America and our president was the reason that it took Bush so long to visit Canada. Paul Martin seems to be much better and hopefully the rift in relations which Chretien caused by his name calling of Bush will be put behind us.

[Edit]I'm not trying to argue with you Nurvingiel. You can boycott your own thread if you wish though. As I said - I will refrain from calling Chretien names out of respect for you. I would much rather talk about Canadian relations as they stand now and have in the past.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As I said - I will refrain from calling Chretien names out of respect for you. I would much rather talk about Canadian relations as they stand now and have in the past.

That's all I ask. (It seems like I missed that in a previous post of yours, sorry.) Moving along...


I actually feel a bit out of touch with current events in Canada. How do you feel current relations stand? You mentioned Paul Martin was good for relations between Canada and the USA. When he was elected he certainly seemed like he wanted to build bridges. It was shortly after that that I came to Sweden.

I'm sure he and Bush must have met at least once since then.