Religion and Individualism

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Often when I go to Chruch (so as not to break my mom's heart ) I get frustrated with the priests who make homilies out of "You can't get to heaven unless you..." I don't think Heaven should be the main motivation to a good deed, and I'm glad to find someone who understands me on this.

I agree with you, too, btw!

At least from what I've been taught, it isn't enough to get to heaven if you do good for your whole lifetime; you have to do good in order to please God, and after doing a good deed, be warm and fuzzy that you made God happy.

Since I"m a Christian, let me try to explain this a bit for you from an "insider's" perspective

My husband enjoys watching football, so he'll be watching the Super Bowl this weekend (it's this weekend, right?) I'm planning all sorts of goodies for the game, because I love him, and out of gratefulness of his love for me that he has demonstrated over and over. I'll get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling when he's sitting watching the game, munching on the goodies I've made for him, because I love him, and because I'm glad to be able to give back to him, because he's given so much to me.

It's the same way with doing good to please God; I "do good" because I love God, and I love the people He has made. Of course it makes me feel good, too, but I don't do the good for the feelings. I do the good because of my love for God, and everything He's done for me out of His great love for me. And I also do good for others, because as I grow closer to God, the source of love, my love for others just naturally grows, and I want to do good out of love.

Does that help explain it at all?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Millane

Well i think its a flaw with religion in general, rather than just a muslim flaw. Now please dont tell me that Christians dont force their beliefs on other people (which includes children), i think the sheer nature of Christianity is force, if you dont do this you will go to hell, if you stick with us you will be saved, and then the numerous christian groups that kick up a stink about everything (this week its still the brothel )...

Some "Christians" do attempt to force their beliefs on others. But note that in scripture, Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." He did not say, "He who does not have ears to hear, make him hear." Not every Christian believes the same thing. Not every Christian does the right thing all the time. But let me assure you that religion-by-force is not something Biblically supported.

Originally Posted by Millane

its a bit of a grey subject, lets just say if your of an age where you can properly evaluate morality and religion (so like you said teenages) and you choose not to its stupid. Why shouldnt you think over the morals your parents "pass on" its not really that different than a religion, i believe its pure laziness not too.

I guess that to me it just depends what you mean by "evaluate". Do you mean that we must shed all predispositions, all of the bias that has been passed on to us through the teachings of our parents, as we evaluate?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

In my belief, the intricacy of life is inevitable. Every action spawns a chain reaction, and on any level higher than basic chemistry, it's intruiging and yes, impressive, to think of; but that doesn't mean some omnicient being made it that way.

(You apparently did understand my main idea, BTW, but I worded those few sentences ambiguously.)

That particular argument for an individual to believe in God was not the point of my statement. I could take it up, but my desire right now is not to attempt to prove God's existence or Christianity's correctness. It's to answer the different issues that are brought up.

My main effort in the part of what I said you quoted was to show how small Atheism is. It truly is a minority. So your belief that "most reasonable, intelligent people when thinking about this matter come to the conclusion that God does not exist" is not valid. Perhaps that knowledge may be helpful to you .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

Thanks.
Often when I go to Chruch (so as not to break my mom's heart ) I get frustrated with the priests who make homilies out of "You can't get to heaven unless you..." I don't think Heaven should be the main motivation to a good deed, and I'm glad to find someone who understands me on this.

Yes. However, is pleasing your mother or father a good reason to do a good deed? I think it is. So when a person comes really close to God, pleasing God can also be a very valid reason for doing a good deed. This is because God is someone people can know personally and intimately. So I do sometimes do good acts in order to please God.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

All I mean is that I've thought about God, and found him improbable. Yeah, that's what all the atheists say, but I didn't reject the possibility of a God entirely. Regardless, now that I doubt it, Catholicism says I'm a sinner.

I'm not a Catholic, I'm nondenominational. I don't know what my Catholic friends would say.

I have times where I doubt the resurrection of the dead that will come in the last days. It just seems so improbable, so utterly unbelievable an event that it is very difficult to accept. God works with me where I am, though, and I trust that he will bring me into more complete a belief and understanding. All that is needed is that trust. My doubt is not of the kind where "because I don't understand it now, I reject it". I am willing to accept it without having a firm grasp on it, a firm, powerful belief in its reality, like I hope I will have later on.

If you accept that God may exist and keep searching for him, I think that that is a way of showing that you still have faith. Searching for God is a way of having faith. You may not have bedrock belief yet, which is the kind I'm still looking forward to for myself as far as the resurrection is concerned, but it's certainly enough for God to work with. He worked with me when that was all I had. I was, at fifteen years old, a Christian in name only. My belief in Christianity was a house of cards that I was very, very, very afraid would topple. All I had enough faith for was to continue praying that God would reveal himself to me if he did exist. That search was full of unbelief, uncertainty. I had no belief, only hope. This Doubt was not rejection. There's a powerful difference in my mind between Searching and Rejecting. If you think there's a possibility of God, but refuse to look for him, I think that that is rejecting. However, just from reading your posts, I am convinced that you are searching, whether knowingly or not.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

At least from what I've been taught, it isn't enough to get to heaven if you do good for your whole lifetime; you have to do good in order to please God, and after doing a good deed, be warm and fuzzy that you made God happy.

You don't have to be warm and fuzzy that you made God happy, though of course it's fine if you are. One doesn't either have to do good acts in order to please God. Most of my good acts are done completely without thinking of God, and I'm glad of that. In my view, when I'm doing good, the less I'm thinking of rewards the better .

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

People who don't praise God in this way (like me, who doubts; or Ghandi, who believed something else) all go to hell.

I already talked about doubt above. As for Ghandi, we can't know what God will do with him. Some nonbelievers are going to end up in heaven, through faith in Christ, even if they didn't know that they had faith in him. That's my belief. But one thing you must understand about hell is that people are only sent there based upon their wrong acts and their wrong lack of good acts. The Final Judgment will be based upon works. However, people can be transformed and made righteous by faith. People who have Christ enter their hearts in a real way have God entering them. Once he is the master of their lives, he doesn't leave them alone to run their lives as they wish. No, he starts cleaning . He starts touching what you don't want him to touch . He starts making you good . I mean really, he does do this. The number of stories I can bring you is incredible. Murderers and thugs have encountered God dramatically and had their lives completely turned around. They have become excellent citizens, shining examples of the Godly life. I have certainly been changed for the better by my experience of Christ, and so have many other Christians I have met. I can go into further detail on this subject, if there's a need.

Originally Posted by Bombadillo

This is the point I strongly disagree with and this is the main reason I've drifted away from Catholicism. Its logic is flawed, and it hasn't realized yet. If God really sent Ghandi to hell, then explain to me how he can be omnicient, understanding, compassionate, merciful, forgiving, loving, or any other "Godly" adjective. I'm not gonna praise God for that.

Well, you and I don't know Ghandi like God does. It seems a bit ridiculous for us to declare that we know better then God. However, I am convinced that God will send no righteous person to hell.

I'm a bit too tired to give this last quote from your post the full attention it deserves, and I don't really have time to respond to the rest now.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

Perhaps saying I'm a Deist would be closer to the mark. I believe something exists (and I know many people use agnostic to describe this belief, though technically that is incorrect). I don't generally believed whatever deity (and I generally think of one God) is as involved in the world as most people who are members of organized religion do. So, yeah, Deism, I suppose, if you must put a label on it.

Ah. Now to me, when I look around me, I see the sky, the plants, the animals, the marvels of nature. This planet truly is a paradise for us, a perfect place for humanity to grow up in. It is custom made for life, to give them beauty and pleasure. We have water to swim in and to drink! Food of great varieties that delight us. There are just so, so, so many things on this planet that seem especially designed to delight humans, I have trouble believing simply from that that God did not have some special interest in humanity.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I won't argue that Christians have had powerful experiences where they "feel" God. Emotions can run high at religious gatherings, especially in one's youth. I've experienced this. I had the emotional high, the adrenaline rush, and the sudden realization and giving up of myself to God...and it disappeared.

Well, I've met two very strong Christians, very wonderful people, one who has seen an angel and one who knows several people that have. And my Mom, who says that when I was a child, I saw an angel. I have seen at least two visions that I do remember, and both my father and myself have seen demons with our waking eyes. There are some more startling experiences then these visions that I could recount too, genuine miracles. One such experiences happened to myself and one to a young girl I know. When the girl was five, she was at a pool party. She was underwater and unable to get up to the surface because of all the people and floats around her. She was drowning. Suddenly the Lord enabled her to breathe underwater, until she reached the surface. Then an experience I had when I was very, very young (I don't remember it). My parents and grandparents and myself were in a field, and my parents were talking. I climbed onto an electric fence, not knowing that it was electric. I was climbing around on it, and suddenly my parents and grandparents saw me. They raced over and took me off the fence. My grandfather was puzzled, for he knew that the fence was supposed to be electrified. He touched the fence, and instantly he received a huge electric shock.

My grandmother has witnessed people with disabilities in their feet, where one leg is too long or one too short, be healed. Before her eyes she saw the leg grow outward or shrink inward to match the other.

Anyway, it's not all fuzzy feelings or emotions. With some people it is, I'll grant you that. But I have experienced and witnessed the power in mighty ways, as have many of my family members. I can assure you that it's real, not fantasy.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I've swung back and forth through religion/spirituality in the last five or so years (you can even chronicle some of it on Entmoot). I do crave something, I want to be more in tune with my spiritual side...but I feel ostracized and uncomfortable at churches.

My uncle, a strong Christian, feels the same way about churches. He's had some very negative experiences in churches, and kept away from them for several years as a consequence.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

My "question mark" comes from blatant hypocrisy. It comes from personal studies of inaccuracies in an ancient book. It comes from looking at the world and wondering what kind of God, who apparently loves us all, would do nothing to intervene in our own destruction. What kind of parent is that? A bad one, in my mind.

I'm tentative about asking about the so-called "innaccuracies", but I know large volumes have been written by Christians that gather them together and refute them. There are Christian experts in this matter. I don't have their resources available to me, so I can't really debate the subject with you.

As far as what kind of God would refuse to intervene in our destruction . . . it's a bit too big a subject to get into here. You probably have already heard RÃ*an talk on the subject anyway, and I don't think I can do any better then she has.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

And Christians aren't the only group to have these powerful experiences. Muslims, pagans, Jews, etc. have similar experiences that "confirm" their faith as well. If so, who is correct? Don't you think God, being the "jealous" God He is, wouldn't allow such ambiguity?

I don't think he does. You're right, of course, about many nonChristians having had powerful spiritual experiences. However, I have read about Christians going into some of these pagan villages and among some of these Muslims, and how God has worked astoundingly on their behalf. I have talked with some of the missionaries in the Muslim missionary field, how they were trying to hand out Jesus tapes and the Muslim wouldn't stop screaming at them, but then an angel came to help, and the Muslim accepted the video. And about how in the pagan villages the Christians always have had the authority to defeat evil spirits and conquer the powers of the enemy. Jesus gave us that authority. And besides, I also won't claim that all spiritual experiences nonChristians have had were from Satan and his cohorts. No, I am convinced that God does speak to people in strong ways who aren't Christian. There are instances of this in scripture, like Caiaphas or Balaam. I think God talks with some Muslims and other nonbelievers as well. However, where there is a real question of spiritual authority, I am convinced that Jesus trumps every power. So my answer would be that God doesn't allow a question mark, or ambiguity.

[Starr Polish]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Ah. Now to me, when I look around me, I see the sky, the plants, the animals, the marvels of nature. This planet truly is a paradise for us, a perfect place for humanity to grow up in. It is custom made for life, to give them beauty and pleasure. We have water to swim in and to drink! Food of great varieties that delight us. There are just so, so, so many things on this planet that seem especially designed to delight humans, I have trouble believing simply from that that God did not have some special interest in humanity.

See, I believe we share the world with everything...very few parts of the world are suited for humans to live with only pre-modern technology. If we were designed to live in this wolrd naturally, it wasn't done very well. This is actually part of why I believe we were created in the image of some kind of supernatural being, because the planet actually doesn't suit us, or it wouldn't if it weren't for our level of intelligence.

I see God everywhere natural, and in some older manmade things: The sky, the grass, trees, streams. I've always felt more at home laying on my back looking at the stars and "talking" to God than I ever have in a wooden building with pictures of a Caucasian Jesus staring at me. I take a huge delight in what God has made, and I think that at times He (I'm using general Christian terms, since it's what I'm familiar with...I personally think God has no gender), but we continue to ruin it. And yes, we need to modify the earth to appoint, but, especially in post-industrial societies, we use far more than we need.

Well, I've met two very strong Christians, very wonderful people, one who has seen an angel and one who knows several people that have. And my Mom, who says that when I was a child, I saw an angel. I have seen at least two visions that I do remember, and both my father and myself have seen demons with our waking eyes. There are some more startling experiences then these visions that I could recount too, genuine miracles. One such experiences happened to myself and one to a young girl I know. When the girl was five, she was at a pool party. She was underwater and unable to get up to the surface because of all the people and floats around her. She was drowning. Suddenly the Lord enabled her to breathe underwater, until she reached the surface. Then an experience I had when I was very, very young (I don't remember it). My parents and grandparents and myself were in a field, and my parents were talking. I climbed onto an electric fence, not knowing that it was electric. I was climbing around on it, and suddenly my parents and grandparents saw me. They raced over and took me off the fence. My grandfather was puzzled, for he knew that the fence was supposed to be electrified. He touched the fence, and instantly he received a huge electric shock. My grandmother has witnessed people with disabilities in their feet, where one leg is too long or one too short, be healed. Before her eyes she saw the leg grow outward or shrink inward to match the other.

I've had similar life-saving incidents in my life (like feeling like I was pulled back from the street before being hit by a car I hadn't heard or seen when no one was there), and my sister is what a lot of people call a miracle. She was born three months early, on the cut off week for premies surviving. Amazingly she suffered NO ill effects from being born this early, and suffers from absolutely NONE of the usually ailments that premie babies have. She shouldn't be alive or functionally normal/average, but she is. I've witnessed "miracles" that happen to both Christians and non-Christians.

I am very skeptical of any "miracles" that I haven't seen first hand. THe mind can play powerful tricks on our eyes, and if we want to believe something, we can usually see it. Just like when a statistic supports our view, we stand behind it, even if afterwards it's shown to be the result of some possibly sketchy research methods.

Anyway, it's not all fuzzy feelings or emotions. With some people it is, I'll grant you that. But I have experienced and witnessed the power in mighty ways, as have many of my family members. I can assure you that it's real, not fantasy.

I've never once said it's all fuzzy feelings or emotions.

My uncle, a strong Christian, feels the same way about churches. He's had some very negative experiences in churches, and kept away from them for several years as a consequence.

I've had negative experiences with churches, as far as them managing to tear my self esteem down to nothing and making me feel like I was worthless.

I'm tentative about asking about the so-called "innaccuracies", but I know large volumes have been written by Christians that gather them together and refute them. There are Christian experts in this matter. I don't have their resources available to me, so I can't really debate the subject with you.

It's not just the inaccuracy but the misquoting, misenterpretation and taking verses out of context was well.

I don't think he does. You're right, of course, about many nonChristians having had powerful spiritual experiences. However, I have read about Christians going into some of these pagan villages and among some of these Muslims, and how God has worked astoundingly on their behalf. I have talked with some of the missionaries in the Muslim missionary field, how they were trying to hand out Jesus tapes and the Muslim wouldn't stop screaming at them, but then an angel came to help, and the Muslim accepted the video. And about how in the pagan villages the Christians always have had the authority to defeat evil spirits and conquer the powers of the enemy. Jesus gave us that authority. And besides, I also won't claim that all spiritual experiences nonChristians have had were from Satan and his cohorts. No, I am convinced that God does speak to people in strong ways who aren't Christian. There are instances of this in scripture, like Caiaphas or Balaam. I think God talks with some Muslims and other nonbelievers as well. However, where there is a real question of spiritual authority, I am convinced that Jesus trumps every power. So my answer would be that God doesn't allow a question mark, or ambiguity.

And I have heard of those raised in Christian homes speaking to others about their beliefs, and questioning them in a healthy way, and then realizing that they DON'T believe in God the way they were taught. It still works both ways. When I shed the church-going Christian facade I was much happier and at peace with myself.

If God didn't allow ambiguity, then there wouldn't be so many questions about His Word and His way. Christian denominations wouldn't fight as bitterly as they do now.

Tha'ts another thing. Christianity has a lot to do with unity, does it not? Then why are all the denominations pointing fingers and saying "No, you're wrong" instead of focusing on the basic fundamentals of the faith?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

My belief in Christianity was a house of cards that I was very, very, very afraid would topple.

Reminded me of this poem, by Lewis -

As the Ruin Falls, by C.S. Lewis

All this is flashy rhetoric about loving you.
I never had a selfless thought since I was born.
I am mercenary and self-seeking through and through:
I want God, you, all friends, merely to serve my turn.

Peace, re-assurance, pleasure, are the goals I seek,
I cannot crawl one inch outside my proper skin;
I talk of love - a scholar's parrot may talk Greek -
But, self-imprisoned, always end where I begin.

Only that now you have taught me (but how late) my lack,
I see the chasm. And everything you are was making
My heart into a bridge by which I might get back
From exile, and grow man. And now the bridge is breaking.

For this I bless you as the ruin falls. The pains
You give me are more precious than all other gains.

[Lief Erikson]

I can't believe this. I really, truly, find myself rather amazed at the moment. This is going to be the third time I respond to your post, Starr. The first time, I had almost finished a lengthy response to your post, and the computer suddenly felt an extreme surge of malice and the Internet "unexpectedly closed down." I rewrote most of the post, and my sister hopped on while I was taking a brief break to make pizza, and she deleted it all by accident.

And now the pizza is ready to eat, so I don't have time. Who would believe this?

Well, I guess I would. I know the Lord has been purposely taxing my patience a lot today, with occurrence after occurrence. It's a bit interesting, but also rather frustrating. Hmm. Bye . Hopefully I'll respond later. It would be really, really amazing if something intervened and killed my post a third time . . .

[Lief Erikson]

I'll give this another go.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

See, I believe we share the world with everything...very few parts of the world are suited for humans to live with only pre-modern technology. If we were designed to live in this wolrd naturally, it wasn't done very well. This is actually part of why I believe we were created in the image of some kind of supernatural being, because the planet actually doesn't suit us, or it wouldn't if it weren't for our level of intelligence.

This argument doesn't make sense to me for the following reason. It's saying essentially, "If God had made us without the intelligence we have, we wouldn't have been at all well suited to this world, therefore God is being sloppy." The fact is that God has made us with the intelligence we have, therefore we are suited to this world. We aren't as fitted to this world as a hyena or a chameleon physically, but mentally we are definitely strong enough. The fact that we are strong enough to live very successfully in this world (and we did also even when we were cavemen! We were pushing species toward extinction even at that time ) shows that God was not sloppy. Perhaps you would have a point if God hadn't made us with the intelligence we have. Then he would have been sloppy perhaps, because we certainly wouldn't be as well suited to this world as most other species. However, we do have the intelligence we have, therefore he wasn't sloppy. That's my reasoning, anyway .

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I see God everywhere natural, and in some older manmade things: The sky, the grass, trees, streams. I've always felt more at home laying on my back looking at the stars and "talking" to God than I ever have in a wooden building with pictures of a Caucasian Jesus staring at me.

Me too. Of course, I accept that not everyone is the same. If other people gain a better connection to God through pictures or symbols, I have zero trouble with that.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I take a huge delight in what God has made, and I think that at times He (I'm using general Christian terms, since it's what I'm familiar with...I personally think God has no gender), but we continue to ruin it. And yes, we need to modify the earth to appoint, but, especially in post-industrial societies, we use far more than we need.

You're almost certainly right. I do think about our planet's rapidly expanding population, of course. How much of this really is necessary, to keep up with the people? I don't have the foggiest idea. Of course, this does get into a rather different topic . . . environmentalism. And since we aren't really in disagreement, there's no real need to go there, I think.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I've had similar life-saving incidents in my life (like feeling like I was pulled back from the street before being hit by a car I hadn't heard or seen when no one was there), and my sister is what a lot of people call a miracle. She was born three months early, on the cut off week for premies surviving. Amazingly she suffered NO ill effects from being born this early, and suffers from absolutely NONE of the usually ailments that premie babies have. She shouldn't be alive or functionally normal/average, but she is. I've witnessed "miracles" that happen to both Christians and non-Christians.

I am very skeptical of any "miracles" that I haven't seen first hand. THe mind can play powerful tricks on our eyes, and if we want to believe something, we can usually see it. Just like when a statistic supports our view, we stand behind it, even if afterwards it's shown to be the result of some possibly sketchy research methods.

So what do you think? Does God act in ways of supernatural spiritual power, or are these experiences you have had and the experiences I and my family have had all explainable by natural means?

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I've never once said it's all fuzzy feelings or emotions.

I was jumping to conclusions. However, when I brought up the power of God, all you spoke about was fuzzy feelings and emotions. So I came to the wrong conclusion, based on that earlier post.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

I've had negative experiences with churches, as far as them managing to tear my self esteem down to nothing and making me feel like I was worthless.

The current youth pastor at our church described having had the same experiences. Christians are behind the Crusades too, Starr. Even in the scripture, Paul talked about ravenous wolves having crept into the flocks, or churches. I believe I remember him talking about that. That's the way the world works.

I won't of course make the judgment that these people you met intended to tear down your self esteem. Very likely they didn't, and probably many of them are very good people. But different people can react in different ways. I remember once I gave a message at a youth group in a church, and I got mixed reports afterward. A few people I think found it inspiring. Other people thought I was condemning them and were hurt, something I absolutely had not intended. I felt very guilty about that, for a while. Some in leaders' zeal or their effort to make a point, they will lead people to the wrong conclusions completely by accident.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

It's not just the inaccuracy but the misquoting, misenterpretation and taking verses out of context was well.

I know that some of those prophecies are scriptures taken very much out of context. I don't view those as misinterpretation or misquoting though. I see the people as, guided by the Holy Spirit, seeing that a scripture applied to more then one thing. Some of the scriptures were taken out of context, but they were meant for more then one event. Like, "Out of Egypt I will call my son." It was in context referring to Israel. Out of context, it was referring to Jesus. Matthew (I believe it was in Matthew) saw that the scripture applied to Jesus as well. I expect that RÃ*an, Valandil or Inked could do a better job of explaining this then I'm doing though. I'm glad RÃ*an is lurking in this thread .

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

And I have heard of those raised in Christian homes speaking to others about their beliefs, and questioning them in a healthy way, and then realizing that they DON'T believe in God the way they were taught. It still works both ways.

We were talking about confrontation of power. Conversion was not the topic. I know however that some seeming Christians, and alas some real Christians do turn from Christianity. Christ, I think, described it as the seed fallen on the path (the seeming Christians) and the seed falling on the soil only to be strangled. Conversion happens both ways. I don't believe that when there is a real question of power though, that God loses. You can see throughout the scripture . . . Moses with the Egyptian magicians, Elijah with the false prophets of Baal, Paul with Elymas the sorcerer. Then we can see it in real life experiences . . . the Christians confronting the pagan witchdoctors of Timor, Patrick confronting the druids in Ireland, etc. The list of occurrences in real life circumstances goes on and on. When Jesus confronts the powers of darkness, through believers that have faith in him and follow him truly, he wins.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

When I shed the church-going Christian facade I was much happier and at peace with myself.

Being free of a mask or a lie always will do that, I expect. Of course, if the church-going Christian part of you was not a facade, you might be even happier and more at peace with yourself then you are now. Who knows? But certainly getting rid of it when it is a facade would be a good thing.

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

If God didn't allow ambiguity, then there wouldn't be so many questions about His Word and His way. Christian denominations wouldn't fight as bitterly as they do now.

Once the Lord showed me a dream about Communion. I'd been studying Communion a lot and debating the subject with Gwaimir at great length. It was a great deal in my mind. Anyway, in my dream I was shown that the church denominations have different glimpses of the truth. They all see the truth, but they see it in different ways. It doesn't mean that each one of them is wrong per say; they are just seeing the truth from different perspectives. The denominations of the church in my dream were represented by partners on the dancing floor. Communion was represented by a beautiful island, and Jesus was holding a lever. Whenever he pulled the lever, the contents of the island rearranged themselves. Whenever this view of Communion was shifted, the dancers in their dancing lurched a bit, but soon it got back into step. The confrontation and disagreement comes when the dancing lurches, but it is temporary and a natural part of seeing the truth and the beauty in a different way. I have hence become much more liberal in my views about Communion. I think Jesus administers it in many ways to different people, and shows different aspects of the truth. And still all the denominations are part of one body of Christ, all the dancers dancing to one tune. There is diversity and essential oneness in the denominations of the Body of Christ, just as the diversity and essential oneness in the members of the human race. And it's a good thing .

Originally Posted by Starr Polish

That's another thing. Christianity has a lot to do with unity, does it not? Then why are all the denominations pointing fingers and saying "No, you're wrong" instead of focusing on the basic fundamentals of the faith?

Sometimes I wonder. Some issues that divide Christians are truly of great importance, and there is one group that's right and one group that's wrong. However, sometimes by focusing on intellectual issues too much, we do miss what is truly important.

[katya]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Thanks a lot for the info
However, I don't get this part:

Sorry I took too long to respond. Anyway, hm... there's this thing. It's like a capsule-shaped sorta tank thingy. You put this solution in it and you float, and apparently it's like you can't feel the water at all. It's completely dark, and sound-proof, so it's like your senses are almost gone completely. I've never seen one, so I can't explain any better than that.

[Insidious Rex]

A sensory deprivation tank.

[inked]

Lurker alert!

Starr Polish, random thoughts on reading the thread: 1) God wants the real you, not a facade, so no problems there; 2) unity is not unanimity but an organic cofunctionality (as in chemical processes, cells, tissues, organisms, families, cultures...all are in life, but the level of interaction is not equivalent in each, especially after consciousness is reached), so to complain of the lack of unity in a unanimous sense amongst all Christians is say the same thing to the kidney about not being the brain (and, yes, there are parts of the Body we usually do not mention in polite society as well ); but St Paul said much about this I know you have heard and read.

Lief, excellent apologia! As regards the issue of scriptural statements being interpreted on different levels, I have a statement from Dante exhibiting the process which I shall edit into this response (I have to abstract it from the HP Xn Themes thread). But this process is not falsification, rather deepening.
Truth is not merely propositional, it is alive and a Person, and thus requires time and experience to enable full relationship. That the relationship matures means that previously unknown or not suspected or un-utilized aspects come into play as the relationship moves on. The truth has not changed, it has been apprehended. This is true on the natural and spiritual levels.

edit:I hope it doesn't bore you, but I am taking the liberty of noting Dante's words on how his Comedy was to be read. In a letter to his patron, Can Grande della Scala he writes:

"The meaning of this work is not simple...for we obtain one meaning from the letter of it, and another from that which the letter signifies; and the first is called LITERAL, but the other ALLEGORICAL or MYSTICAL. And to make this matter of treatment clearer, it may be studied in the verse "When Israel came out of Egypt and the house of Jacob from among a strange people, Judah was his sanctuary and Israel his dominion." For if we regard THE LETTER ALONE, what is set before us is the exodus of the Children of Israel from Egypt in the days of Moses; if the ALLEGORY, our redemption wrought by Christ; if the MORAL sense, we are shown the conversion of the soul from the grief and wretchedness of sin to the state of grace; if the ANAGOGICAL,
we are shown the departure of the holy soul from the thraldom of this corruption to the liberty of erternal glory. And although these mystical meanings are called by various names, they may all be called in general ALLEGORICAL, since they differ from the literal and historical.
"The subject of the whole work, then, taken merely in the LITERAL sense is "the state of the soul after death straightforwardly affirmed", for the development of the whole work hinges on and about that. But if, indeed, the work is taken ALLEGORICALLY, its subject is: "Man, as by good or ill deserts, in the exercise of his free choice, he becomes liable to rewarding or punishing Justice". "

I now follow with Ms Sayers comments:
"It will be seen that Dante has chosen as his illustrative example a text which, taken literally, asserts a historical fact, but which can be interpreted allegorically on three different levels. This suggests that the allegory of the COMMEDIA also may, and should, find various levels of interpretation; and this is true, both of it and of all great allegories which convey universal truths."

Understanding of the application of various OT statements to Christ came in multiple modes, none of them mutually exclusive by necessity. There are direct statements of one coming, allusional statements, statements of immediate deliverance with broader application, and statements of
prophet/priest/king - ship which are direct and personal as well as generalized to Israel, the Messiah, and the Church. The Spirit exhibits the Son in the revelation of the Father. Post-resurrection Jesus is reported to have done this on several occasions, the Acts record it being done to Peter (re: Cornelius specifically), Paul and the Council at Jerusalem. So these understandings grew over time, many like seeds into plants of unanticipated size and fruition! It has an analogy in mathematics: who knew that calculus dwelt amongst addition and subtraction, multiplication and division? But the calculus did, and I even knew how to do it at one time. And there are mathematics above the calculus, I am reliably told, but you couldn't prove it by me or my knowledge. So in prophecy and spiritual things in Christ! But none of us start at fusion physics, do we? (And the assertions of those who so surpass us even have an anology in math in the idiot savants who outperform computers!)

****clang, clang, clang****re-lurking****

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for the quotes and insight, lurker . Fascinating they are to me, of course. 'Tis in my memory locked, and you yourself shall keep the key of it.

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by katya

Sorry I took too long to respond. Anyway, hm... there's this thing. It's like a capsule-shaped sorta tank thingy. You put this solution in it and you float, and apparently it's like you can't feel the water at all. It's completely dark, and sound-proof, so it's like your senses are almost gone completely. I've never seen one, so I can't explain any better than that.

Don't worry, this explanation is good enough! But I think that's a little bit extreme. Isn't "sensory deprivation" what Buddhist monks do? Only they do it naturally without a tank, so I think this guy should go to some Buddhist temple and try to learn from the monks there and make his life a little easier!

[katya]

I should know the answer to that, but I don't. Anyway, I guess he got past the stage where he needed the sensory deprivation tank (thanks IR) so I guess that's unnecessary.^^ I didn't actually read the book though- just a few pages here and there.

I think I'm trying to look at politics from an avatar-like POV. My mom won't shut up about how Bush is evil incarnate, but I want to give him a chance and a fresh start, and see how he acts from now on.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by katya

I think I'm trying to look at politics from an avatar-like POV. My mom won't shut up about how Bush is evil incarnate, but I want to give him a chance and a fresh start, and see how he acts from now on.

In the television debates, he told the American people that if they appointed him as president, they could expect more of the same.

[katya]

Yeah, but my view of "the same" or what happened before is too much influenced by my mom's ramblings so I'm just going to start now. I *could* go back to his actions in the past and interpret those from my own unique POV, but I figured it'd be just as well to start fresh. It's more fair, and more useful to me to know current things rather than old news. ...or something.^^

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by katya

Yeah, but my view of "the same" or what happened before is too much influenced by my mom's ramblings so I'm just going to start now. I *could* go back to his actions in the past and interpret those from my own unique POV, but I figured it'd be just as well to start fresh. It's more fair, and more useful to me to know current things rather than old news. ...or something.^^

I 100% agree. I wish you too the best of luck in finding good and complete information to base your views on! Too many people make judgments based on incomplete evidence. Good luck .

[Bombadillo]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I agree with you, too, btw!

Since I"m a Christian, let me try to explain this a bit for you from an "insider's" perspective

My husband enjoys watching football, so he'll be watching the Super Bowl this weekend (it's this weekend, right?) I'm planning all sorts of goodies for the game, because I love him, and out of gratefulness of his love for me that he has demonstrated over and over. I'll get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling when he's sitting watching the game, munching on the goodies I've made for him, because I love him, and because I'm glad to be able to give back to him, because he's given so much to me.

It's the same way with doing good to please God; I "do good" because I love God, and I love the people He has made. Of course it makes me feel good, too, but I don't do the good for the feelings. I do the good because of my love for God, and everything He's done for me out of His great love for me. And I also do good for others, because as I grow closer to God, the source of love, my love for others just naturally grows, and I want to do good out of love.

Does that help explain it at all?

Thanks, yeah it does clear up a bit. I feel like I knew that at one point but forgot it. Still, it would be hard to love something you don't know or don't believe in fully. How is the word "love" supposed to be applied here?

Gah, most of the trouble with religion is that everything about it can be interpereted so many ways, and the outsider can't tell which way is right.
To quote Dougal McGuire from 'Father Ted', "that's the great thing about Catholicism: it's so vague that nobody really knows what it's all about."