The death sentence.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
I believe very much in justice too. However, I also believe that mercy should have some role to play. More mercy is deserved for someone with less knowledge of the wrong they're doing than for someone who is more aware. That is my basis for thinking that someone younger doesn't deserve as harsh a sentence as someone older.

Age has nothing to do with it, in my opinion, but mental status does.

For instance, in Cary Grant's Arsenic and Old Lace (now now, don't laugh, at least until you start watching it ), he had two aunts who were quite kooky. One time, a kinless elderly gentleman had come to their place for tea, had a heart attack, and died sitting in the chair. When they saw the look of peace on his face, they decided to help other lonely old gentleman find the same peace. They amassed a total of 12 (including him). Now, they were by no means EVIL (like Jonathan, the brother of Grant's character ); what they did was certainly wrong, but they were quite a ways off their rockers, and they had no concept of what they had done. In such a case, I don't think the DP would have been appropriate. But JONATHAN was a very evil person, and as he had gotten just as many as they had, I would think it would have been appropriate for him. Really, by the time someone is 16, I would think they would know that murder is wrong. Heck, if I were to commit murder (me being 18), I would in all likelihood believe that I should receive the death penalty, and maybe even plead for it.

[Lief Erikson]

Well, consider this. As my parents brought me up, the elder child was always considered more responsible than others. They were given greater responsibilities. Don't you consider that logical?

At the same time, they were given greater priveledges (Staying up late, etc.).

But also at the same time, they get the worse of it when it comes between two people arguing. When two people are arguing, one 13 and one 7, and they both are kicking at each other and fighting, and both are equally guilty of starting the fight, will you punish both equally?

Or if a baby burps loudly in company to attract attention to itself, and someone 8 years old burps also, for a joke. Which one will be considered more at fault?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Well, consider this. As my parents brought me up, the elder child was always considered more responsible than others. They were given greater responsibilities. Don't you consider that logical?

At the same time, they were given greater priveledges (Staying up late, etc.).

But also at the same time, they get the worse of it when it comes between two people arguing. When two people are arguing, one 13 and one 7, and they both are kicking at each other and fighting, and both are equally guilty of starting the fight, will you punish both equally?

Or if a baby burps loudly in company to attract attention to itself, and someone 8 years old burps also, for a joke. Which one will be considered more at fault?

That's a good point, and I do agree with you, but I don't know that it really applies to such matters as murder, harrassment, and other things which are as serious as that.

As a sort of side-note about the topic, if I had my way, rapists would get the death sentence. Such a horrific crime I think deserves no less.

[Lief Erikson]

It does apply to matters of greater importance as well. That's the reason why I think the devil is going to be punished far worse than any human. Because humans lack the knowledge the devil had when he went against God.

Children might be brought up in surroundings that encourage that kind of behavior. This lessens their own particular guilt, in my opinion, though it doesn't lessen the horribleness of their crime. Their age makes them less responsible for their actions in this case than an adult would be. An adult should know better- children, who are more impressionable, might not have to know so much better.

I'm not making judgements about specific crimes. I have no opinion at present on what deserves the death and what doesn't. Perhaps children should be killed for certain crimes, but what I'm saying is that their age certainly has to be taken into account, just as it is taken into account by parents disputing problems. And just as Jesus Christ takes our knowledge into account when dealing out judgement on us.

Maturity and knowledge are important, and knowledge frequently comes with maturity. Maturity isn't as great at younger age than it is at an older one, so the person with the younger age frequently has less knowledge than the older individual. And knowledge does have a vital affect upon the judgement. That's why insane people are judged differently from sane people, because they don't have the knowledge about what they're doing. That is why I agree with you about Arsenic and Old Lace, which I also like, by the way .

In the Bible, Jesus says that he who sins knowingly will be beaten with many blows, while he who sins unknowingly is beaten with few blows. That seems just to me, and I believe that the knowledge comes with maturity, and evidence shows that maturity comes with age.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
1) It does apply to matters of greater importance as well. That's the reason why I think the devil is going to be punished far worse than any human. Because humans lack the knowledge the devil had when he went against God.

2) Children might be brought up in surroundings that encourage that kind of behavior. This lessens their own particular guilt, in my opinion, though it doesn't lessen the horribleness of their crime. 3) Their age makes them less responsible for their actions in this case than an adult would be. An adult should know better- children, who are more impressionable, might not have to know so much better.

I'm not making judgements about specific crimes. I have no opinion at present on what deserves the death and what doesn't. Perhaps children should be killed for certain crimes, but what I'm saying is that their age certainly has to be taken into account, just as it is taken into account by parents disputing problems. And just as Jesus Christ takes our knowledge into account when dealing out judgement on us.

Maturity and knowledge are important, and knowledge frequently comes with maturity. 4) Maturity isn't as great at younger age than it is at an older one, so the person with the younger age frequently has less knowledge than the older individual. 5) And knowledge does have a vital affect upon the judgement. That's why insane people are judged differently from sane people, because they don't have the knowledge about what they're doing. 6) That is why I agree with you about Arsenic and Old Lace, which I also like, by the way .

7) In the Bible, Jesus says that he who sins knowingly will be beaten with many blows, while he who sins unknowingly is beaten with few blows. That seems just to me, and I believe that the knowledge comes with maturity, and evidence shows that maturity comes with age.

1) I agree with you; knowledge, not age.
2) Yes, I suppose I agree with this as well.
3) I disagree. Their mental status makes them less responsible, not their age, though the two are often related.
4) Frequently has less knowledge. I agree.
5) Agreed.
6) Three Cheers for Cary Grant! And his dear old aunties, too! (And don't forget Teddy )
7) Agree.

Maturity does come with age, but at different rates for different people. For instance, some of the thirteen year olds (LadyofIthilien and Laurelyn come to mind) are probably more mature than some of the older folks here (like me ). I do agree that maturity comes with age. But as it varies from person to person, I think that age should not be taken into account so much as knowledge, wisdom, or maturity.

[Lief Erikson]

I agree completely. But do you think it's possible or good, in all court settings, for people to judge children based upon our belief of their mental status?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I think that it is probably wise to judge based on the average mental status for the age group (or rather probably better somewhat lower), unless there is good reason to believe otherwise. Of course, no one can really judge the maturity of a person except those who know them (especially their family), but they wouldn't be allowed in the jury, and with derngood reason.

[Lief Erikson]

Precisely. That's exactly what happens, also, and you have just arrived at the conclusion I have drawn. That's why I think children's age should be taken into account when the verdict is decided upon.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, their MATURITY should be taken into account, which is best measured by "outsiders" by their age. The age is only a medium.

[Lief Erikson]

Of course . But because the maturity cannot be fairly judged, the age is used as a device to put our best guess on the amount of maturity.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

-pretty much agrees with Lief-

[Artanis]

There are mainly two reasons why I'm opposed to the death penalty:

1. I sincerely believe that every individual have a right to life, no matter what. It does not mean that I think life is sacred. I also think people should have the right to take their own life, if they so wish.
2. Putting someone to death is irrevocable. What if the person executed is innocent? Even 12 persons in a jury can be wrong.

[Elven Archer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
If they chose it I don't really care. I don't even care if they choose to have their eyes gouged out really and their brains slowly sucked out by a straw. If they want to choose a way to die - let them.

I misread your first post. i thought you were saying since they only chose it,they prolly wouldn't get it. blonde moment.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elven Archer
I misread your first post. i thought you were saying since they only chose it,they prolly wouldn't get it. blonde moment.

No - I was just saying that the argument that US or Utah in particular still uses the firing squad is erroneous. They were sentenced to the death penaty and were going to get the lethal injection - they requested the firing squad instead.

As white supremicists - I think the gouging out of the eyes and having their brains slowly sucked out by a straw might be too humane for them.

[Nurvingiel]

Here's my post from the NEWS-girl killed by mechanic in FL thread. Looks like the death sentence thread needs a bump!


I didn't know Europeans protested when you have an execution. This caused me to look for a list of all countries who still have it. Though a lot of executions occur in the US, from what I found on the Amnesty International site, China and Iran have more. Yugoslavia and Russia are the only European countries on the list. Maybe they don't get protested because they're not in the EU.

Countries who still have the death penalty:

AFGHANISTAN
ALGERIA
ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA
ARMENIA
BAHAMAS
BAHRAIN
BANGLADESH
BARBADOS
BELARUS
BELIZE
BENIN
BOTSWANA
BURKINA FASO
BURUNDI
CAMEROON
CHAD
CHILE
CHINA
COMOROS
CONGO (Democratic Republic)
CUBA
DOMINICA
EGYPT
EQUATORIAL GUINEA
ERITREA
ETHIOPIA
GABON
GHANA
GUATEMALA
GUINEA
GUYANA
INDIA
INDONESIA
IRAN
IRAQ
JAMAICA
JAPAN
JORDAN
KAZAKSTAN
KENYA
KUWAIT
KYRGYZSTAN
LAOS
LEBANON
LESOTHO
LIBERIA
LIBYA
MALAWI
MALAYSIA
MAURITANIA
MONGOLIA
MOROCCO
MYANMAR
NIGERIA
NORTH KOREA
OMAN
PAKISTAN
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
PHILIPPINES
QATAR
RUSSIAN FEDERATION
RWANDA
SAINT CHRISTOPHER AND NEVIS
SAINT LUCIA
SAINT VINCENT AND GRENADINES
SAUDI ARABIA
SIERRA LEONE
SINGAPORE
SOMALIA
SOUTH KOREA
SUDAN
SWAZILAND
SYRIA
TAIWAN
TAJIKISTAN
TANZANIA
THAILAND
TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO
TUNISIA
TURKMENISTAN
UGANDA
UKRAINE
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
UZBEKISTAN
VIET NAM
YEMEN
YUGOSLAVIA (Federal Republic)
ZAMBIA
ZIMBABWE

List from here.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
Here's my post from the NEWS-girl killed by mechanic in FL thread. Looks like the death sentence thread needs a bump!


I didn't know Europeans protested when you have an execution. This caused me to look for a list of all countries who still have it. Though a lot of executions occur in the US, from what I found on the Amnesty International site, China and Iran have more. Yugoslavia and Russia are the only European countries on the list. Maybe they don't get protested because they're not in the EU.

I don't know - last time I checked the US wasn't part of the EU either.

[jerseydevil]

This is the kind of fence looking we get from Europe...

McVeigh: Europe condemns execution

LONDON, England -- Europeans condemned the U.S. execution of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh as barbaric and blood-thirsty.

The criticism came on the eve of U.S. President George W. Bush's first official visit to the continent.

The president of the Council of Europe Parliamentary Assembly condemned Monday's execution as "sad, pathetic and wrong."

Lord Russel-Johnston said the execution gave McVeigh the notoriety he sought and called on the United States to reconsider the use of the death penalty.

"Timothy McVeigh was a cold-blooded murderer. He will not be missed. But the way he died was sad, pathetic and wrong," said Russel-Johnston in a statement.

"It demonstrated the futility of capital punishment to act as a deterrent, giving him the notoriety he sought in committing this horrendous crime.

"It is high time the United States rethought its attitude to the death penalty and aligned its position with the great majority of the free and democratic world."

The London-based human rights group Amnesty International said the execution was a triumph of vengeance over justice.

In Italy, where Pope John Paul II had joined with human rights groups in appealing in vain for Bush to spare McVeigh's life, there were protests outside the U.S. embassy.

A Paris-based group opposed to the death penalty described McVeigh's execution as "useless and ridiculous."

The execution was also heavily criticised in Spain, Germany and Portugal.

In a statement, Amnesty said the execution was a failure of human rights leadership in the highest levels of government in the U.S.

"By executing the first federal death row prisoner in nearly four decades, the U.S. has allowed vengeance to triumph over justice and distanced itself yet further from the aspirations of the international community," the statement said.

McVeigh was killed by lethal injection for the deaths of 168 people when he bombed a government office building in Oklahoma City in 1995.

Amnesty said many of the 152 state executions that occurred during Bush's governorship of Texas were in breach of international standards, such that some European media have dubbed him a "serial executioner."

"By refusing to step in and impose a moratorium on federal executions, he has further damaged his country's reputation," the Amnesty statement said.

The head of a France-based group fighting the death penalty around the world called the execution "useless and ridiculous" and predicted it would spur debate about ending capital punishment in the U.S.

"I don't think the execution of Timothy McVeigh will change the problems of America," said Michel Taube, president of Together Against the Death Penalty.

"The question was: does the execution avoid a new Timothy McVeigh .... Unfortunately, the answer is no," Taube told the Associated Press.

Taube's group is organising the first worldwide congress against the death penalty June 21-23 in Strasbourg, expected to feature a call for a moratorium on capital punishment to be made from the chambers of the European Parliament.

For Taube, McVeigh's execution shows that the death penalty "is absurd and useless and ridiculous ...."

"When a man kills, and especially when he kills 170 people, there is no equivalent. It serves no one for the state and the criminal to outbid each other over death."

Sentiment against the death penalty is strong in France, which abolished capital punishment in 1981.

The last person executed in the European Union was killed by guillotine in France in 1977.

The McVeigh case presented an opportunity for the U.S. government to cease their support of a policy "that allows the murderer to set society's moral tone by imitating what it seeks to condemn," said Amnesty.

"Instead, the U.S. government has put its official stamp of approval on this policy; killing, it says, is an appropriate response to killing."

Pepe Mejia, spokesman for a Spanish group planning protests against Bush's stop in Madrid, told Reuters: "This (the death penalty) doesn't solve anything. The politics aren't based on justice."

In Berlin, the German government released a statement saying it "remains opposed to the death penalty, including as far as the execution of Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh is concerned."

But it added: "This does not imply any kind of sympathy with the perpetrators of this awful crime."

Antonio Maria Pereira, president of the Portuguese human rights group Law and Justice said: "The death penalty is a barbarism inappropriate to our times."

America's use of capital punishment puts it ethically at odds with its European allies, who have all banned it.

Many Europeans are puzzled that a nation parading itself as a model of democracy and human rights continues to carry out death sentences.

"The death penalty is a barbarism inappropriate to our times," Antonio Maria Pereira, president of the Portuguese human rights group Law and Justice, told Reuters.

Sergio D'Elia, secretary of a protest group that demonstrated outside the U.S. embassy in Rome, said: "McVeigh committed a horrible crime. What he did or why he did it is not being discussed -- what is being discussed is the death sentence."

"Bush has built his race to the White House on a road paved with those have been put to death," she added.

[Beor]

[QUOTE]"Bush has built his race to the White House on a road paved with those have been put to death," she added.[QUOTE]

This is really unnecessary. She isnt campaigning against the death penalty here, she is using it to campaign against President Bush. Whoever this woman is needs to stay on the issue, espically since she just got done saying the same thing.

How great are these times that the death penalty is too barbaric? We have some pretty terrible things going on, and now, we're supposed to have sympthy for criminals too? Wait till someone kills my wife and kid, then see how much sympthy I have. Also, maybe then I'll learn to spell.

[jerseydevil]

According to BBC - this is a picture of protesters in Madrid protesting the execution of McVeigh


Europe criticises McVeigh execution


Demonstrators outside the US consulate in Paris

Texas execution angers French

A convicted murderer has been executed in Texas despite a campaign led by European anti-death penalty campaigners with the support of senior French politicians.

Odell Barnes, 31, was executed by lethal injection at Huntsville Prison on Wednesday at approximately 1800 local time (0000 GMT).

Barnes was convicted in 1991 of the murder of his girlfriend. He denied committing the murder, and in a recent interview said: "The truth will be known one day."

His defence team had argued that the police had planted evidence and struck deals with witnesses for false testimony. The arguments were rejected by the court.

A top French government official who campaigned against the sentence described the execution as "an assassination."

"I am revolted and indignant," said Jack Lang, the Chairman of the French National Assembly's foreign affairs committee.

Last minute petition

Texas Lieutenant Governor Rick Perry, refused a 30-day stay of execution. In the absence Texas Governor George W Bush, the front runner in the race for the Republican party presidential nomination, Mr Perry was faced with the decision to give or refuse clemency.

On Wednesday, Mr Lang asked former US President George Bush to petition his son, Governor Bush.

Mr Lang later told reporters that the former president had told him there was a possibility of the 30-day stay of execution.

A spokesman for Mr Bush said this was not the case, and that the former president had only explained the process with appeals against executions.

European campaign

About 50 people demonstrated outside the US Consulate in Paris on Wednesday, in protest against the expected execution.

Barnes' case was taken up by French campaigners against the death penalty.

The campaigners say the investigation which led to the sentence was flawed, and had raised money to review the case.

French President Jacques Chirac called for clemency last week, and Prime Minister Jospin wrote to Governor Bush saying he shared the strong emotion aroused in France by Barnes' fate.

Barnes was the 10th person put to death this year in Texas.

Yes - Nurvingiel - we are constantly demonstrated against in Europe, even when it comes to our OWN INTERNAL affairs. That was even in March 2000 and is not a result of fallout from Iraq or anything like that, that everyone likes to bring up.

[jerseydevil]

Mixed global response to McVeigh execution

Reaction around the world to the execution of the Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh has been varied - ranging from out and out condemnation by European leaders to indifference in Asian countries.

European reaction came as George W Bush prepared for his first visit to Europe as president. The five day tour began on Tuesday.

The Swedish Government, which currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, headed the critics.

Swedish Foreign Minister Anna Lindh said the EU regretted the continued use of capital punishment in the US, and would be voicing its concerns at a summit with Mr Bush in Gothenburg later this week. No EU country uses the death penalty.

While the execution received top news coverage in Europe, it was marked as a matter-of-fact event in many Asian countries where capital punishment is an accepted law enforcement tool.

On the streets, many people said McVeigh received an appropriate punishment.

"He deserved to die," said Min Sung-joo, 31, a computer programer in South Korea, where about 40 convicts are reported to be on death row.

"I really don't have any sympathy for the guy. That's what's due to him," said Edward Wong, 27, an art director for an ad agency in Singapore where 340 people have been executed in the past decade for mainly drug related offences.

China leads the world in executions, putting at least 1,000 people to death last year, often with a bullet to the back of the head.

There, state-run and commercial media defended the death penalty as a way of deterring serious crime and maintaining social stability.

State-run papers said McVeigh had led a "brief and evil life" and carried headlines of approval such as "The law acts on McVeigh".

But the media in Australia, New Zealand and Japan sharply criticised the execution, which conducts the death penalty in secret, refusing until recently to even confirm to the public when executions had been carried out.

"It was virtually a public execution" said Japan's major Asahi newspaper in a front-page story about the close-circuit broadcast of the McVeigh killing.

Degrading

"No matter how much they are called `barbaric' by the United Nations and European countries, the United States continues down the road of being the great execution nation."

An editorial in the New Zealand Herald, the country's largest circulation paper, condemned the execution as "degrading".

Given the gravity of his crime, the paper said McVeigh will not be missed "but in taking his life the United States has diminished itself".

Australia's national newspaper, The Australian, carried a guest editorial with the headline "Uncle Sam, the serial killer". In it, prominent human rights advocate Chris Sidoti criticised the high number of executions in the United States.

McVeigh's execution was the 34th in the United States this year.

The 33-year-old was the first federal prisoner to be executed for 38 years.

He died by lethal injection at 0714 local time (1214 GMT) on Monday, six years after killing 168 people in the worst-ever peacetime attack on US soil.

Mr Bush called the execution "the severest sentence for the gravest of crimes".

"The victims of the Oklahoma City bombing have been given not vengeance but justice," he said in a statement at the White House.

Mr Bush started his European tour in Madrid on Tuesday. The visit is already controversial because of European anger at Washington's abandoning of the Kyoto protocol on the environment.

Fundamental principle

European critics of capital punishment called the execution a vengeful, morally unjustifiable way of making McVeigh pay for his crime.

In a statement, the German Government said it opposed McVeigh's execution on "fundamental principle".

The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe also voiced opposition to the execution.

"It is high time the United States rethought its attitude to the death penalty and aligned its position with the great majority of the free and democratic world," council president Lord Russell-Johnston said.

Death penalty petition targets US

Opponents of the death penalty have organised a mass petition urging moratoriums on capital punishment throughout the world.

The petition, with 3.5 million signatures, is to be handed to United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan in New York on Monday.

It comes as a powerful advocate of capital punishment, George W Bush, prepares to take office in the White House.

Although many governments have abolished the death penalty, executions remain legal in about 90 countries.

Signatories to the petition, which has been organised by the Rome-based Community of Sant'Egidio, say that the death penalty is a denial of the universal right to life and that it dehumanises the world by putting vengeance first.

The Dalai Lama, Indonesian President Abdurahman Wahid and Italian film director Roberto Benigni are among those who signed.

It will be presented by veteran human rights campaigner Sister Helen Prejean.

Bush targeted

Correspondents say the United States is the key target of the campaigners.

Sister Prejean said she hoped that Mr Annan would use his influence to persuade it to rethink.

"He can hold up the United States and say - wouldn't you like to join the good guys? Wouldn't you like to join the global community of countries who stand for human rights?" she said.

But, with US popular support for the death penalty running at about 60% and the emergence of President-elect Bush, the petitioners have a problem.

More than 660 people have been executed in the US since the death penalty was re-introduced there in 1976.

In Texas, where Mr Bush has been governor for the past four years, support for the death penalty rises to 80%.

Mr Bush has overseen more than 130 executions - a greater number than any other governor in the US since the death penalty was reinstated.

Rest of the world

But worldwide, the number of countries which retain the death penalty is falling.

The European Union prohibits its use in peacetime.

Chief among those that still authorise judicial killings is China which, according to Amnesty International estimates, executed over 1,000 people last year.

Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the Democratic Republic of Congo also carry out a large number of executions.

Perfect example that the US is the one being singled out by the petitioners and demonstraters - we had 660 executions between 1976 and 2000 according this article - while China has over 1,000 executions in one year, but we are the ones who get demonstrated against by Europeans.

Also this article erroneously says that Bush oversaw more than 130 executions. Bush had nothing to do with executions in Texas - it's their laws - which were there BEFORE Bush entered into office.

Clemency Process (for Texas):

The Governor has the authority on the advice of the Board of Pardons and Paroles. The Governor needs a favorable recommendation from the board in order to be able to grant clemency. The governor is not obligated to follow the recommendation of the Board. The Governor also has the power to grant a thirty day reprieve.