10-17-2003, 10:23 PM | #141 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-17-2003, 10:49 PM | #142 | |||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
I also think that him and his family show a lot of restraint toward the Palestinians. They don't hate the palestinians - all they want to do is live in peace. I am just glad that Rad lives on the western part of Israel - further away from the main conflict (he does live by Tel-Aviv though - so it's still bad). I would also not use the term evil- but I would use fanatical madmen. The Palestinian terrorists have REPEATLY demonstrated that they have NO desire for peace AND that is who Israel is fighting against NOT the Palestinians in general. Quote:
Unless the other side is will to meet halfway - there can be no peace - NO MATTER how many times the West extends it's hand. I want to see TRUE outcries for peace from the Middle East - like there are here in the West. I don't see Palestinians or Muslims marching in the streets and demonstrating calling for Suicide Bombers to stop. When I see that - I will truly think that the Middle East wants peace.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 10:56 PM. |
|||
10-17-2003, 10:51 PM | #143 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
I will agree with you that MANY of them are simply brainwashed. But that does not excuse a suicide bomber's actions or their responsibility. Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 10:59 PM. |
||
10-17-2003, 10:58 PM | #144 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
I certainly do not consider your post a flame; you make some decent points that certainly must be considered in any discussion of this topic. Nobody knows all the answers - if they did, the situation would have been resolved years ago.
I agree with you that the Palestinians are using the wrong tactics in their struggle. However, if you say that the Palestinians do not want peace because they will not stop the fighting, I would also like to put on the table that by this reasoning, Sharon also does not want peace, as he has hardly been the first one to lay down the sword. I realize that it is hard to be the first one to take the step and refuse to participate in the fighting. But I truly believe that this is what must happen - there can be no peace while both sides still live in such violence and hatred. One side must step forward, be brave, and say "no more." Peace to all, Percy
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
10-17-2003, 11:00 PM | #145 | |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
Quote:
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
|
10-17-2003, 11:06 PM | #146 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
10-17-2003, 11:17 PM | #147 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
I think the IRA bombings of the past in Northern Ireland and England were wrong. They are INTENTIONALLY targetting innocent people. My ancestors are Irish and I grew up Catholic - there is no excuse for the actions of the IRA - at least strong enough to bomb innocent people.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-17-2003, 11:27 PM | #148 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
Forgive me, I am not meaning to make excuses for these people, as I do not believe that there is any excuse for the terrible crimes they have commited.
I am simply trying to look at things from their point of view. There is a difference between "understanding" and "agreeing," and I am simply trying to do the former. Nobody does anything that drastic without motivation of some sort, and perhaps if it is possible to understand the motivation, it will be much easier to understand how to end this conflict to the satisfaction of both sides.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
10-17-2003, 11:59 PM | #149 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
Take bin Ladin - his list keeps changing as he comes up with more ideas to be against us. Yet - in one speech he made - and I'm sure he has said this many times before - he clearly says that his goal is the complete destruction of the Western world. That he wants Islam to be the only thing left on earth. Now we can't reason with him, we can't really understand his objections - because his objections are just their to obtain a goal. As I feel the objections of the suicide bombers aren't anything but a way to get to a goal - the elimination of Israel. We do have to do something to make it so terrorist groups have more and more trouble recruiting impressionable youth into their fanatical islam. But that is going to take decades most likely and it's not going to be an easy road. The West also can't do this alone - we need the help of the Middle East. The Middle East must know that we will not tolerate these terrorists.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
10-18-2003, 12:05 AM | #150 | |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
Quote:
But how do we do this? The most obvious answer to me would be to improve the quality of life for these people to the point that they do not feel that they are in such desperate straits. The poverty and misery that is endemic in these countries among the working class is a breeding ground for discontent, and when combined with a repressive regime that gives the citizenry no outlet to express their opinions and frustrations, you have a ticking bomb. Therefore, I believe that the best way to stop terrorism -- and you are certainly right in saying that this will take time and patience -- is to help them learn to help themselves, better their social circumstances, make sure they have food on their tables and roofs over their heads, and show them, not by preaching at them, but by our actions, that we are not the enemy. There is a great deal of hatred to overcome, but this hatred cannot be overcome with violence on our side. If you add fire to fire, you simply get a bigger fire. The only way to overcome this hatred is with love.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
|
10-18-2003, 12:33 AM | #151 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Isn't bin ladin quite wealthy? You would think that a man of his means, that claims to care so much about Islam, would put his money to better use than by training terrorists to fly planes into skyscrapers. I think he is a nut and should be eliminated for the sake of the whole world.
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-18-2003, 12:36 AM | #152 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
If you are imply that the war in Iraq was wrong - I disagree. I think it was important for many reasons - least of which was WMD. I think we need to take out Hussein to free his people of his tortures and excutions, to develop a workign democracy in Iraq (which we will succeed, becuase it's the most important thing). Without taking out Hussein and making a change to a middle eastern country from the ground up - we have no chance of the other other countries to making the necessary changes on their own.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
||
10-18-2003, 12:38 AM | #153 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
Who knows why he does what he does?
You can listen to what he says, but it is most likely that the truth is somewhere between the lines. Perhaps he believes in what he is preaching; perhaps he believes we truly are evil and to be destroyed. That would be little different than what the Knights on the Crusades believed about the Muslims, or the Nazis about the Jews. It is disgusting, but it is not new. Perhaps he enjoys the power such a position gives him. Perhaps he was wealthy, but it was not until he became such a feared terrorist that he gained fame. Perhaps he is simply, as you believe, mentally ill. Any of these options are surely possible.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
10-18-2003, 12:39 AM | #154 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-18-2003, 12:44 AM | #155 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-18-2003 at 12:45 AM. |
||
10-18-2003, 12:46 AM | #156 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
I should probably state from the outset that I am a millitant pacifist - I was raised that way. My parents are Quakers, and while I am not, I have carried most of their social values into my moral and spiritual structure.
I do disagree with the war in Iraq, on many grounds, primarily because I do not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and I believe that we were lied to by the Bush administration. Perhaps this is not true, it is likely that the people of the United States will never know for sure. It is my dearest belief that until the United States finally realizes that it is better to use diplomacy than our vast military strength, that it is better to use love and discussion than the iron fist, that we will continue to create enemies throughout the world.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
10-18-2003, 12:50 AM | #157 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
Quote:
__________________
"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-18-2003, 01:01 AM | #158 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Hussein was given many times to comply with the UN resolutions and he refused repeatedly. It was time to stop pussy footing around and take action. Several months ago we found entire fighter jets buiried in the sand. I'm not going to be surprised when we find weapons of mass destruction. It was just George Bush's adminstration who said they were there - Clinton one or two years before leaving office also stated that Iraq was a serious problem and held stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. I think we played Mr Nice Guy long enough with Iraq and I think without Hussein there - Iraqis will have a far better life than they have had since he's been in power. The only thing holding us back really is the militant terrorist organizations. We have to stop the bombings and the only way to do that is to let the Iraqi people see that things are really getting A LOT better. As long as they can see that their life will be better with the help of the US - they won't side with the terrorists. The majority of Baghdad residents in the latest independent poll still supports the US being there - the terrorists are a fringe element that captures most of the media attention though.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
10-18-2003, 01:02 AM | #159 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
That is a legitimate concern, and I will be the first to tell you that pacifism is far from easy. It is much easier to hit someone back when they hit you than to clench your fist and refrain.
But it comes down to this - someone has to be brave and stop the cycle of violence. Someone has to say "I am not doing this anymore." Will they suffer for it? Probably. Nobody would say that the followers of Gandhi had an easy time, or that they didn't suffer. As for the United States being the policemen of the world - this can be done in a non-violent way as well as a violent one. We control such a huge percentage of the world economy that it could easily be used as leverage, and if we are patient enough, would work as well as violence.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
10-18-2003, 01:09 AM | #160 |
Enting
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: The Burrow
Posts: 81
|
Iraq is an extreme case.
Of course, it would have been better if we had a little more foresight, and had not built his regime in the first place during the Iran/Iraq war, but that is a moot point, and not worth arguing. The things Hussein was doing to his people were horrific. There is no denying that. Just listening to them made me sick to my stomach. What do you do in a situation like that? I believe that life is sacred, and it is not our place to kill, but how do you stop someone who seems to be touched by nothing, and who is able to perform such crimes against humanity? I am not upset that Hussein is out of power, and I will be honest and say that I don't know another way that we could have done it other than the way we did. But the war itself saddens me as well. All of the men who died on both sides of the conflict, and all of those who are still dying today...all of the hatred created, all of the sorrow, all of the misery and suffering that removing Saddam created...is it really worth it? I know you will say yes, it is, and perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. I don't know. I don't claim to know all the answers. All I know is that this whole situation has made me very, very sad.
__________________
Whither you go, may you find light. Await us there--my brother, and me. ~~~~~~~~ Howard Dean in 2004! |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Increased Islamic Influence in European Nations | inked | General Messages | 198 | 03-20-2011 06:36 AM |
muslims PART 2 | Spock | General Messages | 805 | 02-03-2011 03:16 AM |
The media | Butterbeer | General Messages | 102 | 11-07-2006 12:54 PM |
Was Hitler Christian,Athiest,Savior-Madman) FACTS welcomed along with your opinions | brownjenkins | General Messages | 203 | 08-07-2006 05:48 PM |
RELIGIOUS Debate on Terroristm-who, why, etc. | Spock | General Messages | 215 | 09-06-2005 11:56 PM |