09-08-2005, 04:19 PM | #141 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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09-08-2005, 04:22 PM | #142 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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They had enough resources to *start*. To sit back and do nothing was inexcusable then and now.
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09-08-2005, 04:26 PM | #143 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But in the meantime, I have lots of water and food and flashlites, etc. stored up, since I live in California and have been thru several earthquakes, including the Sylmar one in the 70's when we got .... evacuated!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-08-2005, 04:42 PM | #144 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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09-08-2005, 05:12 PM | #145 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-08-2005, 05:20 PM | #146 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The main thing I don't understand is why they didn't just drop in loads of bottled water. That seems like a very feasible thing to do, and it's certainly extremely critical.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-08-2005, 06:17 PM | #147 |
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see post below
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---Ben formerly known in the forums as bmilder Owner of The Tolkien Trail and Entmoot. Buy Entmoot shirts and mugs! Last edited by Ben : 09-09-2005 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Note: I had originally asked whether the overall response was inexcusable, hence Rian's reply |
09-08-2005, 09:23 PM | #148 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, Ben, I think you can evaluate each different group - you seem to be pushing for Spock to say the overall relief efforts were either acceptable or not, and I don't understand why. It seems to me that you can evaluate different groups, given their unique responsibilities, information input, access to resources, etc.
Overall, it seems to me that the feds could have done better, esp. in two areas: Bush showing up there sooner, and somehow getting water in there. But also overall it seems that the local authorities could have done better in areas like repairing levees (maybe a special tax? after all, you can say it's someone else's fault, but if that someone else is not taking care of your issue, then it would be prudent to take care of it yourself instead of waiting for it to happen and then saying, "but it wasn't my fault!") and having more emergency plans.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
09-08-2005, 09:44 PM | #149 |
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A reasonable assessment, Rian. I also think that the federal government and the state and local governments made errors, as I'm detailing in a post I'm drafting now.
EDIT: On second thought, you may be right about intermediate questions. I'll cut to the chase and amend my question to Spock to what I really would like to know: Spock, do you believe that President Bush and the federal government bear any blame for problems with the preparation, rescue, and relief efforts?
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---Ben formerly known in the forums as bmilder Owner of The Tolkien Trail and Entmoot. Buy Entmoot shirts and mugs! Last edited by Ben : 09-09-2005 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Actually, Rian's probably right about unclear question |
09-08-2005, 10:52 PM | #150 |
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More regarding economic policies and Katrina
On September 8th, the U.S. House of Representatives approved a $51 billion aid package for victims of Hurricane Katrina. If you take a close look at the roll call, you'll notice the vote was not unanimous. Of those present, all the Democrats and the vast majority of Republicans, unsurprisingly, voted for the aid package. But 11 Republican congressmen somehow voted against the aid package.
I don't know what their rationale was, but I note that all of this band of 11 are ardent free-market, government-shrinking conservatives. These aren't just random congressmen, either - one is the head of the Judiciary Committee, and another is the head of the Energy and Commerce Committee. Now, everyone in the chamber must have known that the bill was going to pass. Yet these 11 conservatives decided to make a statement and vote against the aid package because ... ? See what I mean about conservative economic ideology and natural disasters?
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09-09-2005, 08:52 AM | #151 |
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I think this thread has been completely spoiled for those of us who would like to discuss others things besides politics.
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09-09-2005, 09:33 AM | #152 | ||
Queen of Nargothrond
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I would like to post a letter that JD sent to CNN regarding their reports on the hurricane. I thought he made some good points. Quote:
Frankly, we can finger point til the cows come home. That changes nothing, and what's done is done. There were mistakes made on all levels. We need to learn from it for future disasters to come.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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09-09-2005, 10:19 AM | #153 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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he's not completely offbase (though they did prepare, just not enough... categorizing it as ZERO is on topic criticism because it focuses too much on blame and too little on real solutions)
but to this comment... Quote:
let's put blame behind us for a moment and think about the future ... might it be a good idea for our federal government to be a backup for when local government's do fail to act? people mention cost, but the cost of cleanup is always much higher than the cost of prevention... and it is a cost the entire country bears, not just the state of louisiana
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09-09-2005, 12:13 PM | #154 | |
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09-09-2005, 01:18 PM | #155 |
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Well you know I was all about scattering blame in a wide variety of levels but after reading Jerseys one sided tyrade I can see how this becomes simply an opportunity for extremists on both sides to use the event to try to score political points and not a rational focus on what really went wrong. He does realize doesnt he that EVEN Bush himself has admitted the FEDERAL government was seriously lacking in its response to this? And yet its all the fault of the Mayor of New Orleans?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
09-09-2005, 02:24 PM | #156 | |
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Quote:
Spock: keeping in mind that local and state officials all made errors, do you believe that President Bush and/or the federal government (including the Department of Homeland Security and FEMA) bear any blame - even the tiniest bit - for the problems with preparation, rescue, and relief? I'm not seeking to change any opinions - I just want to know your opinion. That's not so hard, is it?
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09-09-2005, 03:50 PM | #157 |
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JD is entitled to his own opinions, but not his own facts. He provides zero substantiation about any of his claims about how disaster management is divided between state and federal government. I could spend an hour researching his claims to respond, but I've been burned enough in this thread. I can't respond until he provides some legitimate sources to back up his claims about federalism.
Look, we can all talk about how we wish FEMA and the locals would interact, but let's reference specific federal and state statutes and FEMA procedures when making matter-of-fact statements about how these groups operate. It's also factually incorrect that local and state governments did "nothing," just as it's factually incorrect to say that the federal government did "nothing." Making a claim that is so easily proven to be a severe exaggeration obscures the rest of what he's trying to say. I would ask JD what he thinks the purpose of FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) is if the federal government has no business to "jump in right away" during emergencies. You can't wish away federal agencies. Also, he comments that FEMA can't have plans for every city. True, but as I've proven earlier in this thread, FEMA specifically reported in 2001 that the hurricane hitting New Orleans was one of the three likeliest, most catastrophic dangers facing this country. A second of their predicted disasters actually came to pass (terrorist attack on New York), so one would expect a competent federal agency to get to work devising a plan for the other looming catastrophes, if they hadn't done so already. It's actually false to say that FEMA didn't have a plan for New Orleans, because last year, the feds and state government conducted a drill called "Hurricane Pam," in which a catastrophic hurricane on New Orleans was simulated. The White House was briefed on this exercise.
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09-09-2005, 04:09 PM | #158 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As a small rabbit-trail comment, I would like to say that altho I don't think the sole purpose of GM discussions is to change people's opinions, my opinions have indeed changed in several areas as a result of some of the intelligent, considerate, logical, information-backed discussions that have taken place here, and me being willing to openmindedly consider the points made. They have NOT changed as a result of ANY of the (thankfully rare) rude and uninformed comments. And even if they don't change, the discussions are still good because I gain greater insight into other people's thoughts and feelings.
Back OT - one of the issues that makes me angry in cases like this is what I see as a hypocritical attitude from some of the people in the US when it comes to the federal government, especially. I've travelled on airplanes since 9/11, and compared to what it used to be, the pre-boarding time is just awful! Long lines, send your bags to get x-rayed, go in this line to be searched, go in this line to have your carry-ons searched, etc. etc. On our trip to Ecuador, my husband was unlucky enough to have one tiny little nail-clipper escape his notice, and we almost missed a connection because it took over 10 minutes to tear apart his whole carry-on and find the bugger. Yet I don't complain about it - I know that choices have consequences. We could choose to go back to the old, easier ways, but the consequence would be a far higher chance of more attacks. In the same way, people complain about homeland security stuff, and loss of privacy stuff, yet God help whoever is in the government when the next attack comes - it's guaranteed that there will be complains about why don't we screen people better, etc. from the same people complaining about long waits at airports. Ya can't have it both ways. Living in California, I sure hope that our local governments learn from this in terms of food, water and medicine issues. Personally, we have our own supplies ready at our house, but we didn't for many years. It's so easy to think, "we can do it next week!" Our local governments have taken some responsibility for our own unique problems here in Calif. by upping building codes. For new buildings, soil analysis takes place (soil type greatly affects how much "shake" is transmitted to the building, or how likely a large soil collapse/shift will be), and foundation requirements are assigned accordingly. Our house, which we bought new in 1997, has a special system of connecting rebar woven into the foundation. And when we added on, we had to pour our foundation to some ridiculous depth and tie into the rebar web on the existing house. So I think our local gov't is taking care of things to some extent, altho I have no idea about food/water/meds issues. I think the most important point is that if someone is supposed to take care of you, but doesn't, then it's foolish to not do it yourself. It seems like the N.O. officials, who knew about possible levee failure, should have done more, no matter what (if anything) the feds should have done. And from the little I've heard from the N.O. mayor, it seems like he's trying to vilify others to take the spotlight off his own shortcomings in this area.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-09-2005 at 04:13 PM. |
09-09-2005, 04:38 PM | #159 |
Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ
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*************important Notice***********
To people in general (this is directed at more than one or two people):
If I see that anyone has made a post that does not further the debate, or is just a witty one-liner, I will remove it. Although I usually PM people when I remove their posts, or ask them to edit it themselves, I will not do that for this thread. This is not simply for my own personal pleasure--I've had complaints that certain people are wrecking the debate, and I wont put up with it in as serious a topic as this. You will have something important to say, or you will say nothing at all. Thank you, Tessar |
09-09-2005, 05:26 PM | #160 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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The head of FEMA has now been replaced. He is not being replaced as FEMA head overall, but as head of the efforts in New Orleans. More later.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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