the definative balrog answer :)

[Gordis]

I shall give you a good advice, Valarauko. Forget all encyclopedia - use LOTR text to draw conclusions.

And in the text there is Gandalf's account of the fight in the abyss and later upon Zirakzigil:

'Deep is , and none has measured it,' said Gimli.

'Yet [the abyss] has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
'We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. [...]
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame.

It sounds very much like shape-shifting to me. A thing of fire and shadow became a thing of slime (to adjust to the surroundings), and then turned back again into the thing of fire.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Yes, but firstly the encyclopedia of Arda is far from comprehensive in and of itself. And secondly, just because it's referred to as Morgoth's doesn't mean that it was his creation.

Oh, I disagree. While maybe the entries in the Encyclopedia might vary in quality, I think the complementing articles about the Balrogs covers a lot of the different views and interpretations that exist. There is discussion without taking sides. Indeed, as for your second remark, there is no claiming that Balrogs were Morgoth's creations but simply that they could be.

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

This is a perfect example of how bad the encyclopedia can be. The Book specifically states that "it was man-sized......" and "It drew itself up to a great height" Doesn't that sound like it could change shape to anyone but me?

The article I linked to in my previous post addresses this point. Did you read all of it? It proposes that while these passages could of course suggest genuine shape-shifting, they could also refer to the mysterious "shadow" that the Balrogs (albeit man-like in size) were supposedly swathed in. A lot of what some people interprets as shape-shifting, could very well be considered the works of the Balrog's "shadow" by others. Here's the article again:

On Balrog shape-shifting

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Here's another great contradictory on Balrogs in the encyclopedia. Under Durin's Bane it has "In January III 3019, the Company of the Ring travelled through Moria on the Quest of Mount Doom. In Gandalf, the Balrog finally encountered a being of the same order and power as itself. As the two Maiar faced each other on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm,..." Which implies that the encyclopedia thinks they are both Maiar. Isn't that great?

There is no contradiction. The Encyclopedia clearly considers the Balrogs to be Maiar, but questions whether Tolkien himself considered them Maiar when he wrote that very passage of LotR. In any case, he clearly thought of them as corrupted Maiar later on.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Assuming this shape-shifting theory is correct, why fall at all? Anyone see the trailer for the new Ice Age movie? If not, go do that before reading further.

Ice Age Trailer

Go ahead. I'll wait.

Ok, now replace the two squirrels with Gandalf and a shape-shifting Balrog.

[Valarauko5]

Just for the record, that is the best scrat video I think I've ever seen.

And Jonathan, you quoted the article earlier that specifically says it's unclear as to if the Balrog is intended to be a Maia in the books. That's why I pointed out that the encyclopedia also says in one place that they definitely are. Gordis is right. The encyclopedia really isn't that good for this stuff. And are you really going to try and convince me that a "thing of slime" is somehow it's shadow making it scarier.

Nice Idea Dread Pirate, but the Balrog wasn't necessarily trying to get away, and Gandalf could probably fly if he wanted to. So imagine both squirrels were flying squirrels, what then?

P.S. Thanks Gordis. I hadn't remembered that part in the Two Towers.

[Valarauko5]

And for the record this is great. I'm glad we're actually discussing this reasonably instead of getting into how english writing really works. This makes much more sense guys, thank you.

[Jonathan]

Well, are you trying to convince me that a "thing of slime" couldn't just be a Balrog's natural appearance, once its fire is quenched?

[Valarauko5]

Well, yes I am. A creature of shadow and flame doesn't sound slimy to me, I've built plenty of camp fires in my time and when you douse them with water, they aren't slimy but more of just wet. "A thing of Slime" implies that he is now formed or is covered in a layer of the stuff to my mind. Fire and shadow just doesn't do that naturally. It would have to be him adapting to the new fighting environment. That sounds like an evil creature being clever to me, not something accidental.

[Valarauko5]

To be precise, it sounds very much like an eel of some sort, a good form for fighting in the water.

[Jonathan]

I've never heard anyone compare a balrog to a campfire before
Anyway, "a thing of slime" could just as well imply that he's normally just really oily under all the fire. And we all know how combustible oil can be

[Valarauko5]

Now come on, us balrogs do take showers occasionally.
But sure, we're very much like a self fueling campfire. I just can't see that the water truly extinguished his flame. Remember he's MADE of flame. He has power over it. I think if he really wanted to he could have boiled the water away.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Valarauko5

Nice Idea Dread Pirate, but the Balrog wasn't necessarily trying to get away, and Gandalf could probably fly if he wanted to. So imagine both squirrels were flying squirrels, what then?

That doesn't answer my question.

If the Balrog could shape-shift, why didn't he? You're a physical being in a humanoid shape and you're falling into an abyss. If you have the ability to shape-shift into anything, why would you wait until you hit the water at the bottom and then change to an eel?

And Gandalf could not fly, or more accurately there is no evidence anywhere that he could, so you can't use the possibility as a reason for the actions and abilities of others such as the balrog.

[Attalus]

Well, to start off, what shape would it change into to keep itself from falling? We know that the Balrog that Glorfindel slew couldn't save itself (pronoun used advisedly) from falling, by, say, turning itself into a ladybug. For one thing, flying requires lightness, and both Balrogs were being attacked by doughty foes that would chop a ladybug or a European land-swallow into bits. For another, even if Balrogs are assumed to have wings, flying is a complex activity, and taking off in midair while being whaled on by an angry Maia wielding a magic sword would be a feat to be talked about im many a meeting of the Utumno Reunion Society.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Attalus

Well, to start off, what shape would it change into to keep itself from falling? We know that the Balrog that Glorfindel slew couldn't save itself (pronoun used advisedly) from falling, by, say, turning itself into a ladybug. For one thing, flying requires lightness, and both Balrogs were being attacked by doughty foes that would chop a ladybug or a European land-swallow into bits. For another, even if Balrogs are assumed to have wings, flying is a complex activity, and taking off in midair while being whaled on by an angry Maia wielding a magic sword would be a feat to be talked about im many a meeting of the Utumno Reunion Society.

I agree that the Balrog most likely was not capable of flight. Though I don't know exactly what you mean by lightness. There's no inherent need for lack of mass when flying. An obvious example is a 747 passenger airliner. What is required is aerodynamic lift, to oppose the force of gravity. Sure enough, having wings isn't good enough. The wings of the Balrog, whether he had them or not, need to be able to create the lift necessary for a Balrog to cancel out his free fall.

Personally I believe the shadowy wings of the Balrog were some massive, semi-tangible dark matter related to his fiery nature, yet were completely incapable of any flight whatsoever A flightless winged Balrog, like the flightless bird on the Galapagos Islands.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

He needn't keep himself from falling. He only needed to slow down his descent to afford himself a measure of safety and a tactical advantage over Gandalf. I think the flying squirrel shape, or something similarly membranous, would have worked fine.

You slow your descent and follow Gandalf down to the bottom. Gandy plunges into the water and then just as he comes up for air you're on him.

All this is assuming he is both intelligent and able to shape-shift. That he didn't seem to attempt such a thing indicates to me a lack of one or the other characteristic. That other balrogs are said to have fallen to their deaths tells me it's the latter ability that they lack.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

He needn't keep himself from falling. He only needed to slow down his descent to afford himself a measure of safety and a tactical advantage over Gandalf. I think the flying squirrel shape, or something similarly membranous, would have worked fine.

You slow your descent and follow Gandalf down to the bottom. Gandy plunges into the water and then just as he comes up for air you're on him.

All this is assuming he is both intelligent and able to shape-shift. That he didn't seem to attempt such a thing indicates to me a lack of one or the other characteristic. That other balrogs are said to have fallen to their deaths tells me it's the latter ability that they lack.

Of course the flying squirrel doesn't actually fly though, it glides eloquently through the air And who knows, he may have attempted it and partially succeeded with his wing-like features, but I too am sceptic to his shape-changing abilities. I think if he possessed it, they were of a very limited nature, and much more an effect of the environment than a conscious, willed adaption (see slimy shape in the water).

I think though this might be the wrong attribute to look at. Inasmuch we want to discuss its ability to adapt I would focus less on actual shape-changing of the body, and more on the seemingly elastic and highly weathered body mass instead. The Balrogs seemed to be of a very resilient fabric that look hard to break down.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

What is required is aerodynamic lift, to oppose the force of gravity. Sure enough, having wings isn't good enough. The wings of the Balrog, whether he had them or not, need to be able to create the lift necessary for a Balrog to cancel out his free fall.

Though I bet that if a dragon like Smaug was capable of flying in Tolkien's world, a winged Balrog would also be.

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Though I bet that if a dragon like Smaug was capable of flying in Tolkien's world, a winged Balrog would also be.

Really? I can't say I'd draw that conclusion at all..

Smaug is a giant dragon, and if we judge by The Hobbit Smaug is by nature an excellent flyer whoms entire body has undergone evolutionary steps to that effect with neat, slim features and an exceptional eyesight (much like an eagle). The Balrog on the other hand, is no dragon, and neither does it seem to have much use of flying in the chasms of Moria. Here it would climb, not fly. Likewise, although I have cursory knowledge of Silmarillion, it seems the Balrog do not attack with an aereal disposition, but from the ground. Is there any textual evidence suggesting that it does that?

[Jonathan]

Does Smaug have much use of flying in the tunnels of the Lonely Mountain?

Besides, the Balrogs I envision don't have wings at all, so your question about evidence of aerial attacks bounces right off me

[Coffeehouse]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Does Smaug have much use of flying in the tunnels of the Lonely Mountain?

That's not really relevant. Because Smaug does not roam about inside the mountain 24/7. It is his lair and treasure room, but he frequents the wide open outside the Lonely Mountain as the dragon he is, for food and leisure and great amounts of pleasure. And there is an important distinction in size: The Lonely Mountain is a speck of a hill compared to the immense depths beneath the Bridge of Khazad-dûm and the towering heights of the Misty Mountains. The Balrog roams the tunnels of a vast underground compared to the cramped space of the Lonely Mountain.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Besides, the Balrogs I envision don't have wings at all, so your question about evidence of aerial attacks bounces right off me

Lol, yeah, I guess.. but I wasn't accusing you of anything just wondering whether you had any sources to back up the notion that a Balrog would fly if Smaug could fly. But it's a bit off key really, since the difference between the Balrog and Smaug is that, as I wrote earlier, Smaug is a natural flyer with the excellent eyesight and a rather athletic body equipped with massive wings. That Smaug can fly bears no relevance to whether the Balrog can fly.

Because the Balrog seems to have a completely different physiqué. He is of fire and smoke and other burning matter, he has some sort of wings that really no one knows what consist of so we don't really know if his wings are even capable of achieving the sort of upward lift that real flying would need. Perhaps he does like the flying squirrel.. glide, but we don't know that either

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Coffeehouse

I agree that the Balrog most likely was not capable of flight. Though I don't know exactly what you mean by lightness. There's no inherent need for lack of mass when flying. An obvious example is a 747 passenger airliner. What is required is aerodynamic lift, to oppose the force of gravity. Sure enough, having wings isn't good enough. The wings of the Balrog, whether he had them or not, need to be able to create the lift necessary for a Balrog to cancel out his free fall.

That is quite true about the 747 and other jet aircraft. Their aerodynamic lift despite relatively small wing surfaces is achieved by tremendous amounts of thrust. Non-jet aircraft are comparitively light for their size, as I found out during a stint moving museum-aircraft around: they are made of (mainly) aluminum, wood, and/or canvas, enabling them to achieve flight on the small, weak engines available, then. Even today, prop aircraft struggle with heavier than usual payload, as anyone who has heard the stall alarm go off in a King-Air carrying three hunters, six rifles, and a bunch of ammunition and booze can testify. I dread the thought of adding pilot armor, let alone machie guns to that airframe.

Dragons are a special case, and have been portrayed repeatedly as very airy, as a result of thier fire-breathing power, and, of course, they have magical muscles to get the optimum thrust. Smaug, of course, has huge wings.

I do feel that Balrogs could fly on occasion (Tolkien refers to them in the earliest form of the Silmarillion as moving with winged speed, though that has been explained as a metaphor) but agree with all the posters here that , whatever wings Durin's Bane had or had not, he had neither the room nor the opportunity to use them, as was the case with Glorfindel's Balrog.