Homosexual marriage II

[GrayMouser]

Gaffer, I certainly agree that there are many times when divorce is the best solution to a bad situation- or just when people amicably agree that they've made a mistake.

But still, nobody goes into a marriage thinking "well, this will be over later anyway" or "we can always get divorced if it doesn't work out".

In that sense I think every divorce is at least an acknowledgement that something went wrong; that things didn't turn out as hoped.

[Tessar]

This looks like it's on the verge of devolving into another personal argument. Please don't let that happen.

[BeardofPants]

Simi? Yu makin' up werds agin, simian boi?

[Tessar]

Pffft. Wuteva.... wuman, I do wut I wont! *attempts to throw a gang sign and accidentally deletes several member accounts* Oh... frick... no one panic... I can... I can fix this....

But for your benefit I will go in and change it to real words.

[The Gaffer]

Of course.

I reckon there are people who go into marriage thinking "we can always get divorced" by the way. Many people just do it because it's expected of them.

[GrayMouser]

Then there's the two-hour specials they have in Iran... and a certain number of Vegas matches where she's thinking "How long before the old fogey kicks off from a heart attack?"

[Jonathan]

A friend of mine is a theologian, who regularly compares various Bible translations, studies available interpretations and takes the relevant Zeitgeist into consideration - all to get as close as possible to the original meanings of biblical texts.
Maybe I can ask him to look into Genesis 2:24.

[brownjenkins]

It's always amusing how much biblicals choose to read into a handful of words when it works for them, and how much they don't when it doesn't.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

It's true. The Bible is often used selectively to support a particular political or social agenda. People use the Bible to challenge others more than allowing it to challenge themselves.

[The Gaffer]

No, I think the bible might be onto something here, or at least the gospel according to Miriam Webster:

CLEAVE:

transitive verb
1 : to divide by or as if by a cutting blow : split
2 : to separate into distinct parts and especially into groups having divergent views
3 : to subject to chemical cleavage <a protein cleaved by an enzyme>

2) seems particularly apposite in the context of my first marriage...

[inked]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cleave

cleave
- 7 dictionary results
cleave
1    /kliv/ Show Spelled[kleev] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), cleaved or ( Archaic ) clave; cleaved; cleav·ing.
1.
to adhere closely; stick; cling (usually fol. by to ).
2.
to remain faithful (usually fol. by to ): to cleave to one's principles in spite of persecution.
Origin:
bef. 900; ME cleven, OE cleofian, c. OHG klebēn (G kleben )

—Related forms
cleav·ing·ly, adverb

cleave
- 7 dictionary results
cleave
1    /kliv/ Show Spelled[kleev] Show IPA
–verb (used without object), cleaved or ( Archaic ) clave; cleaved; cleav·ing.
1.
to adhere closely; stick; cling (usually fol. by to ).
2.
to remain faithful (usually fol. by to ): to cleave to one's principles in spite of persecution.
Origin:
bef. 900; ME cleven, OE cleofian, c. OHG klebēn (G kleben )


cleave
2    /kliv/ Show Spelled [kleev] Show IPA verb, cleft or cleaved or clove, cleft or cleaved or clo·ven, cleav·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to split or divide by or as if by a cutting blow, esp. along a natural line of division, as the grain of wood.
2.
to make by or as if by cutting: to cleave a path through the wilderness.
3.
to penetrate or pass through (air, water, etc.): The bow of the boat cleaved the water cleanly.
4.
to cut off; sever: to cleave a branch from a tree.
–verb (used without object)
5.
to part or split, esp. along a natural line of division.
6.
to penetrate or advance by or as if by cutting (usually fol. by through ).
Origin:
bef. 950; ME cleven, OE clēofan, c. OHG klioban (G klieben ), ON kljūfa; akin to Gk glýphein to carve, L glūbere to peel

—Synonyms
1. halve, rend, rive.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.


cleave 1 (klēv)
v. cleft (klěft) or cleaved or clove (klōv), cleft or cleaved or clo·ven (klō'vən), cleav·ing , cleaves

v. tr.

1.

To split with or as if with a sharp instrument. See Synonyms at tear1 .
2.

To make or accomplish by or as if by cutting: cleave a path through the ice.
3.

To pierce or penetrate: The wings cleaved the foggy air.
4.

Chemistry To split (a complex molecule) into simpler molecules.

v. intr.

1.

Mineralogy To split or separate, especially along a natural line of division.
2.

To penetrate or pass through something, such as water or air.


[Middle English cleven , from Old English clēofan ; see gleubh- in Indo-European roots.]
cleav'a·ble adj.

cleave 2 (klēv)
intr.v. cleaved , cleav·ing , cleaves

1.

To adhere, cling, or stick fast.
2.

To be faithful: cleave to one's principles.


[Middle English cleven , from Old English cleofian .]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Word Origin & History

cleave
"to split," O.E. cleofan "to split, separate" (class II strong verb, past tense cleaf, past participle clofen ), from P.Gmc. *kleubanan, from PIE base *gleubh- "to cut, slice." Past tense form clave is recorded in Northern writers from 14c. and was used with both verbs (see cleave (2)), apparently by analogy with other ME strong verbs. Common to c.1600 and still alive at the time of the King James Bible; weak p.t. cleaved also emerged in 14c. for this verb; cleft is still later. The p.p. cloven survives, though mostly in compounds.

cleave
"to adhere," O.E. clifian , from W.Gmc. *klibajanan , from PIE *gloi- "to stick." The confusion was less in O.E. when cleave (1) was a class 2 strong verb and cleave (2) a class 1 verb; but it has grown since cleave (1) weakened, which may be why both are largely superseded by stick and split .
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

Merely to point out that the context is important for the use of the word in a sentence, paragraph, article, essay, entire work, or text.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by inked

Merely to point out that the context is important for the use of the word in a sentence, paragraph, article, essay, entire work, or text.

The subjective interpretation of the context.

[Tessar]

BJ, keep in mind you're quibbling over the meaning of words when it's not even in the original language.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

As everyone knows, authorial intent is totally passe these days. It doesn't matter what the writer wanted (and thus, it doesn't matter about the original language); all that matters is how I can use a text to further my own ideological agenda.

EDIT: Just thought I should make clear: this is not a jibe at any particular persons, but at postmodern scholarship as a whole.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

As everyone knows, authorial intent is totally passe these days. It doesn't matter what the writer wanted (and thus, it doesn't matter about the original language); all that matters is how I can use a text to further my own ideological agenda.

Quite so.

My only quibble is with the "these days" part. Twas ever thus. Especially with regard to scripture. We are just a bit more honest about it "these days".

[GrayMouser]

And Ireland gets one step closer, bringing in civil partnership laws.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Tessar

BJ, keep in mind you're quibbling over the meaning of words when it's not even in the original language.

True, but it goes back to the original point. The idea that that one line in Genesis somehow implies "until death do us part" as we understand it today is an ubsurd level of reading into the text. Once again, it's why Jews see divorce in such a different light than Christians.

There are books with statements from Jesus that could be interpreted to such an extent, but Genesis doesn't even touch upon those details.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Jews, or at least the Jews I know, still see divorce as tragedy, as in every way unfortunate, as (in the words of the Gaffer, back at the beginning of the discussion) "a bad thing." It's just a bad thing which is permitted (albeit in a sexist mode).

I would agree with you, of course, that "cleave to his wife and become one flesh" does not logically necessitate "till death do us part;" however, it does seem to imply a certain degree of permanence, a strong preference for preservation of the bond.

[inked]

God creates one man, then one woman, and they have children and they live and they die.

IT is no stretch to argue for monogamy, fidelity, and till death do us part since they LIVED all.

Read their lives and don't look for anachronistic insertions that are not there because they derive from the lived experience and not vice versa.

[GrayMouser]

Congratulations, Argentina- one more to the growing ranks