02-03-2005, 05:51 PM | #141 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My husband enjoys watching football, so he'll be watching the Super Bowl this weekend (it's this weekend, right?) I'm planning all sorts of goodies for the game, because I love him, and out of gratefulness of his love for me that he has demonstrated over and over. I'll get a "warm and fuzzy" feeling when he's sitting watching the game, munching on the goodies I've made for him, because I love him, and because I'm glad to be able to give back to him, because he's given so much to me. It's the same way with doing good to please God; I "do good" because I love God, and I love the people He has made. Of course it makes me feel good, too, but I don't do the good for the feelings. I do the good because of my love for God, and everything He's done for me out of His great love for me. And I also do good for others, because as I grow closer to God, the source of love, my love for others just naturally grows, and I want to do good out of love. Does that help explain it at all?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-03-2005 at 05:52 PM. |
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02-04-2005, 03:09 AM | #142 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-04-2005, 03:45 AM | #143 | |||
Elf Lord
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My main effort in the part of what I said you quoted was to show how small Atheism is. It truly is a minority. So your belief that "most reasonable, intelligent people when thinking about this matter come to the conclusion that God does not exist" is not valid. Perhaps that knowledge may be helpful to you . Quote:
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I have times where I doubt the resurrection of the dead that will come in the last days. It just seems so improbable, so utterly unbelievable an event that it is very difficult to accept. God works with me where I am, though, and I trust that he will bring me into more complete a belief and understanding. All that is needed is that trust. My doubt is not of the kind where "because I don't understand it now, I reject it". I am willing to accept it without having a firm grasp on it, a firm, powerful belief in its reality, like I hope I will have later on. If you accept that God may exist and keep searching for him, I think that that is a way of showing that you still have faith. Searching for God is a way of having faith. You may not have bedrock belief yet, which is the kind I'm still looking forward to for myself as far as the resurrection is concerned, but it's certainly enough for God to work with. He worked with me when that was all I had. I was, at fifteen years old, a Christian in name only. My belief in Christianity was a house of cards that I was very, very, very afraid would topple. All I had enough faith for was to continue praying that God would reveal himself to me if he did exist. That search was full of unbelief, uncertainty. I had no belief, only hope. This Doubt was not rejection. There's a powerful difference in my mind between Searching and Rejecting. If you think there's a possibility of God, but refuse to look for him, I think that that is rejecting. However, just from reading your posts, I am convinced that you are searching, whether knowingly or not.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-04-2005, 04:06 AM | #144 | |||
Elf Lord
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I'm a bit too tired to give this last quote from your post the full attention it deserves, and I don't really have time to respond to the rest now.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-04-2005, 04:09 AM | #145 | |||||
Elf Lord
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My grandmother has witnessed people with disabilities in their feet, where one leg is too long or one too short, be healed. Before her eyes she saw the leg grow outward or shrink inward to match the other. Anyway, it's not all fuzzy feelings or emotions. With some people it is, I'll grant you that. But I have experienced and witnessed the power in mighty ways, as have many of my family members. I can assure you that it's real, not fantasy. Quote:
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As far as what kind of God would refuse to intervene in our destruction . . . it's a bit too big a subject to get into here. You probably have already heard R*an talk on the subject anyway, and I don't think I can do any better then she has. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 02-04-2005 at 05:02 AM. |
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02-04-2005, 01:16 PM | #146 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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I see God everywhere natural, and in some older manmade things: The sky, the grass, trees, streams. I've always felt more at home laying on my back looking at the stars and "talking" to God than I ever have in a wooden building with pictures of a Caucasian Jesus staring at me. I take a huge delight in what God has made, and I think that at times He (I'm using general Christian terms, since it's what I'm familiar with...I personally think God has no gender), but we continue to ruin it. And yes, we need to modify the earth to appoint, but, especially in post-industrial societies, we use far more than we need. Quote:
I am very skeptical of any "miracles" that I haven't seen first hand. THe mind can play powerful tricks on our eyes, and if we want to believe something, we can usually see it. Just like when a statistic supports our view, we stand behind it, even if afterwards it's shown to be the result of some possibly sketchy research methods. Quote:
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If God didn't allow ambiguity, then there wouldn't be so many questions about His Word and His way. Christian denominations wouldn't fight as bitterly as they do now. Tha'ts another thing. Christianity has a lot to do with unity, does it not? Then why are all the denominations pointing fingers and saying "No, you're wrong" instead of focusing on the basic fundamentals of the faith?
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“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell |
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02-04-2005, 01:18 PM | #147 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-04-2005 at 01:20 PM. |
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02-04-2005, 10:34 PM | #148 |
Elf Lord
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I can't believe this. I really, truly, find myself rather amazed at the moment. This is going to be the third time I respond to your post, Starr. The first time, I had almost finished a lengthy response to your post, and the computer suddenly felt an extreme surge of malice and the Internet "unexpectedly closed down." I rewrote most of the post, and my sister hopped on while I was taking a brief break to make pizza, and she deleted it all by accident.
And now the pizza is ready to eat, so I don't have time. Who would believe this? Well, I guess I would. I know the Lord has been purposely taxing my patience a lot today, with occurrence after occurrence. It's a bit interesting, but also rather frustrating. Hmm. Bye . Hopefully I'll respond later. It would be really, really amazing if something intervened and killed my post a third time . . .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-05-2005, 03:32 AM | #149 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
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I'll give this another go.
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I won't of course make the judgment that these people you met intended to tear down your self esteem. Very likely they didn't, and probably many of them are very good people. But different people can react in different ways. I remember once I gave a message at a youth group in a church, and I got mixed reports afterward. A few people I think found it inspiring. Other people thought I was condemning them and were hurt, something I absolutely had not intended. I felt very guilty about that, for a while. Some in leaders' zeal or their effort to make a point, they will lead people to the wrong conclusions completely by accident. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-05-2005, 03:34 AM | #150 | |||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-05-2005, 10:11 PM | #151 | |
Elven Maiden
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02-05-2005, 10:53 PM | #152 |
Quasi Evil
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A sensory deprivation tank.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
02-05-2005, 11:37 PM | #153 |
Elf Lord
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Lurker alert!
Starr Polish, random thoughts on reading the thread: 1) God wants the real you, not a facade, so no problems there; 2) unity is not unanimity but an organic cofunctionality (as in chemical processes, cells, tissues, organisms, families, cultures...all are in life, but the level of interaction is not equivalent in each, especially after consciousness is reached), so to complain of the lack of unity in a unanimous sense amongst all Christians is say the same thing to the kidney about not being the brain (and, yes, there are parts of the Body we usually do not mention in polite society as well ); but St Paul said much about this I know you have heard and read. Lief, excellent apologia! As regards the issue of scriptural statements being interpreted on different levels, I have a statement from Dante exhibiting the process which I shall edit into this response (I have to abstract it from the HP Xn Themes thread). But this process is not falsification, rather deepening. Truth is not merely propositional, it is alive and a Person, and thus requires time and experience to enable full relationship. That the relationship matures means that previously unknown or not suspected or un-utilized aspects come into play as the relationship moves on. The truth has not changed, it has been apprehended. This is true on the natural and spiritual levels. edit:I hope it doesn't bore you, but I am taking the liberty of noting Dante's words on how his Comedy was to be read. In a letter to his patron, Can Grande della Scala he writes: "The meaning of this work is not simple...for we obtain one meaning from the letter of it, and another from that which the letter signifies; and the first is called LITERAL, but the other ALLEGORICAL or MYSTICAL. And to make this matter of treatment clearer, it may be studied in the verse "When Israel came out of Egypt and the house of Jacob from among a strange people, Judah was his sanctuary and Israel his dominion." For if we regard THE LETTER ALONE, what is set before us is the exodus of the Children of Israel from Egypt in the days of Moses; if the ALLEGORY, our redemption wrought by Christ; if the MORAL sense, we are shown the conversion of the soul from the grief and wretchedness of sin to the state of grace; if the ANAGOGICAL, we are shown the departure of the holy soul from the thraldom of this corruption to the liberty of erternal glory. And although these mystical meanings are called by various names, they may all be called in general ALLEGORICAL, since they differ from the literal and historical. "The subject of the whole work, then, taken merely in the LITERAL sense is "the state of the soul after death straightforwardly affirmed", for the development of the whole work hinges on and about that. But if, indeed, the work is taken ALLEGORICALLY, its subject is: "Man, as by good or ill deserts, in the exercise of his free choice, he becomes liable to rewarding or punishing Justice". " I now follow with Ms Sayers comments: "It will be seen that Dante has chosen as his illustrative example a text which, taken literally, asserts a historical fact, but which can be interpreted allegorically on three different levels. This suggests that the allegory of the COMMEDIA also may, and should, find various levels of interpretation; and this is true, both of it and of all great allegories which convey universal truths." Understanding of the application of various OT statements to Christ came in multiple modes, none of them mutually exclusive by necessity. There are direct statements of one coming, allusional statements, statements of immediate deliverance with broader application, and statements of prophet/priest/king - ship which are direct and personal as well as generalized to Israel, the Messiah, and the Church. The Spirit exhibits the Son in the revelation of the Father. Post-resurrection Jesus is reported to have done this on several occasions, the Acts record it being done to Peter (re: Cornelius specifically), Paul and the Council at Jerusalem. So these understandings grew over time, many like seeds into plants of unanticipated size and fruition! It has an analogy in mathematics: who knew that calculus dwelt amongst addition and subtraction, multiplication and division? But the calculus did, and I even knew how to do it at one time. And there are mathematics above the calculus, I am reliably told, but you couldn't prove it by me or my knowledge. So in prophecy and spiritual things in Christ! But none of us start at fusion physics, do we? (And the assertions of those who so surpass us even have an anology in math in the idiot savants who outperform computers!) ****clang, clang, clang****re-lurking****
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-05-2005 at 11:57 PM. Reason: add information |
02-07-2005, 03:09 AM | #154 |
Elf Lord
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Thanks for the quotes and insight, lurker . Fascinating they are to me, of course. 'Tis in my memory locked, and you yourself shall keep the key of it.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-07-2005, 08:16 AM | #155 | |
Fëanorophobic
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02-08-2005, 08:10 AM | #156 |
Elven Maiden
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I should know the answer to that, but I don't. Anyway, I guess he got past the stage where he needed the sensory deprivation tank (thanks IR) so I guess that's unnecessary.^^ I didn't actually read the book though- just a few pages here and there.
I think I'm trying to look at politics from an avatar-like POV. My mom won't shut up about how Bush is evil incarnate, but I want to give him a chance and a fresh start, and see how he acts from now on. |
02-08-2005, 08:29 PM | #157 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-08-2005, 08:44 PM | #158 |
Elven Maiden
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Yeah, but my view of "the same" or what happened before is too much influenced by my mom's ramblings so I'm just going to start now. I *could* go back to his actions in the past and interpret those from my own unique POV, but I figured it'd be just as well to start fresh. It's more fair, and more useful to me to know current things rather than old news. ...or something.^^
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02-08-2005, 10:17 PM | #159 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-08-2005, 11:06 PM | #160 | |
"The Bomb"
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Gah, most of the trouble with religion is that everything about it can be interpereted so many ways, and the outsider can't tell which way is right. To quote Dougal McGuire from 'Father Ted', "that's the great thing about Catholicism: it's so vague that nobody really knows what it's all about."
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