01-05-2006, 01:36 PM | #141 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Why should only secularists get priviledged treatment? I think the government should be neutral, and allow the people to live within its framework, including the establishment clause, which is clearly NOT violated by having a cross on the county seal if that is part of the history of the county and the people that live there.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
01-05-2006, 01:47 PM | #142 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
it's all part of the system... there is no "priviledged treatment"
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
01-05-2006, 07:41 PM | #143 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
|
|
01-05-2006, 08:17 PM | #144 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
If the people of LA County actually elected people to represent them that really wanted a KKK figure on the seal, I imagine they would have put it there. If that was the case, I don't think I'd be living in that area. I think the people of LA County have more sense than to elect people who would even CONSIDER putting the KKK on there The people of our good state are not like that, in general, that's why symbols like that aren't on there.
As it is, the people elected people to represent them, and they put a tiny cross on the county seal, thinking it was an important part of the county of THE ANGELS (or actually the full name is the QUEEN OF THE ANGELS, i.e., Mary, aka Los Angeles.) And it was fine, until the ACLU bullied them into taking it out - no, worse, they bullied them into taking it out AND being fools, by putting a building on there and saying it's a mission when there's no cross on the building. It could be a Costco, as far as most people might think, unless TOLD it was a mission. IIRC, it's Mission San Gabriel, and it's a picture of the REAR of the mission (conveniently where you can't see the cross), not the lovely front with all the beautiful bells and the cross. Quote:
The separation of church and state is merely in a letter by Jefferson. It is NOT in the constitution or bill of rights. There are MANY other things in MANY other letters by MANY other founding fathers. Why not quote some of them that talk about God and the role of religion in government? You can pick your favorite, but so can I.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-05-2006 at 08:20 PM. |
|
01-05-2006, 09:04 PM | #145 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
So, because YOU are religious, you would like to impose your religion upon the entire country? And you entirely missed the point I made when I sarcastically used the KKK as a comparing example of what you promote with your desire to impose your christianity upon the government, and everyone, irregardless of their right to be free of religious bias and imposition. And YES, it IS in the Constitution, Rian, to separate religion from the state.
I think it will be pointless to continue to try and have conversations with you when it ever comes to topics like getting religion out of government, because you have a very strong christian bias. You say " Why should only secularists get priviledged treatment? " I say "Why should only religious fundamentalists get priviledged treatment? " Because that's what you're asking for when you make this big deal about putting crosses on government property, and wax eloquent on trivialities like where Los Angeles got its name. You're asking for priviledged treatment for yourself and other christians who want crosses everywhere. That is impinging on the rest of us in this free country who wish to keep the crosses in the churches, and the government in the government. You say potato, I say potahto, Rian, and thus it ever shall be, it seems. |
01-05-2006, 09:17 PM | #146 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Lotesse, in post #120, RÃ*an wrote this:
"The government is BY the people, FOR the people. If 90% of the people think a manger scene is appropriate on public property, then put one up! And if 2% want a Hannukah display, then put one up, too. And if 1% want a Kwanzaa display, then put one up, too. But if 1% don't think ANY display should be up, then I don't think they should be able to trample on the other people's wishes, since it is NOT against any law or right. I think those people are selfish bullies, in general; hiding behind the good will of the vast majority of Americans and taking advantage of their tolerance. Why should one selfish, grumpy person cancel a whole party for everyone else? Ask for a display that YOU like to be put up along with the others, or have the good grace and tolerance to let other people enjoy theirs and be quiet." So it's apparent that she's not just asking for Christian priviledges.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-05-2006, 11:05 PM | #147 |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
No, you're right - she's asking for religious priviledges. If 90 %, 2%, or 1% of the population wants there to be NO religion in government, the same should apply, but I see a double standard here - big time. But I'm not going to argue with YOU about HER; it constitutes talking about or for someone in their absence and is silly. Rian was who I was speaking to, not you, no offense; but it's nice that you'd want to try and defend her. It makes sense that you would, since you are also a right-wing christian. Just as I'd defend the views of my like-minded mooters.
|
01-05-2006, 11:33 PM | #148 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
You, apparently, entirely missed my point when I ably refuted the KKK argument. What was your point that you think I missed? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I don't want privileged treatment for anyone. Our representative type of government should represent the people. And it just so happens that most of the people here are Christians. If I lived in an Islamic country, I wouldn't be surprised to see Islamic symbols. The difference is that if I put up a manger scene, I might get killed. Here in America, if you don't like manger scenes, you can put up whatever you want - that's your RIGHT. Or put up nothing. That's also your right. Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-05-2006 at 11:41 PM. |
||||||
01-05-2006, 11:39 PM | #149 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
You certainly have interesting arguments Rian
Why is it so important to have religious scenes on public property?
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
01-05-2006, 11:46 PM | #150 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I don't personally think it is super important, right off hand (good question, btw, I'll have to think about that ), but I think it IS hugely important that people CAN have a voice in their government and their community, and I think it's VERY significant when that voice is being taken away (no matter WHAT the subject is - "religious" or not) by a small minority of party-poopers who are, IMO, mostly power-hungry bullies. (not you guys, though). I think these people truly need "tolerance", and it's ironic that they are probably the ones spouting off about how others need it!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-06-2006, 01:25 AM | #151 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|||
01-06-2006, 09:36 AM | #152 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 516
|
Quote:
|
|
01-06-2006, 10:19 AM | #153 |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
well put hasty
in practice, it seems to be case by case... i'd rather see the government not spend money and time on things like nativity scenes on public commons (or menorahs or any other holiday symbol for that matter), but i don't think that much money or time should be spent on their removal either what might be better is to allow any group to display something on the commons if: a) it is paid for and maintained by that group b) it is voted by the majority to be okay (this would stop things like the KKK, but allow the less controversial) what does bother me is the idea that the government are repressing anything... we never have, and never will tell churches, for instance, that they can not have a nativity scene on their front yards... and 9 times out of 10, these front yards are facing these very same commons we are talking about there seems to be a desire by the christian side to paint a picture that is much more oppressive than it really is... remember, we are debating what is done on public property and public property only
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
01-06-2006, 11:55 AM | #154 |
An enigma in a conundrum
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 6,476
|
After careful reading I must say I totally agree with "Lief"
and with Rian BTW, public land is just that, public and although a state or local government may have a building on it, the will of the people is supposed to be honored. These symbols are all part of what has gone before and to arbitrarily wipe them out by law or fear is to deny when and where we came from. No one is going around arresting non-believers for not putting up displays.
__________________
Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
01-06-2006, 12:23 PM | #155 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
I fail to see why we have to accomodate the secularists by changing history.
The reality of history is not privileging religion, it is simply what actually happened. To do what is being done in the name of secularism is in fact privileging secularism and changing history. Who is actually imposing whose views on whom?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-06-2006, 12:24 PM | #156 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
as far as "denying where we came from"... not all americans have a christian past so your "we" is a bit inaccurate to say the least Quote:
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||
01-06-2006, 12:26 PM | #157 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
and it isn't about history either, it's about the present
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
01-06-2006, 12:46 PM | #158 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 516
|
Quote:
Communities choose to display religious icons on private property all the time, and no one is condemning that, but when a government agency gets involved, it validates that display by conferring government approval. This merely leads to feelings of divisiveness and disenfranchisement, instead of being a unifying and celebratory display which I assume is the intent. |
|
01-06-2006, 01:33 PM | #159 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Quote:
Was California explored by Spanish conqistadores? Was the mission at Los Angelos started by Catholic priests?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
|
01-06-2006, 01:56 PM | #160 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Quote:
the ACLU forces us to re-examine history from time to time... never a bad thing
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
||