02-26-2005, 10:50 AM | #141 | |||
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I know your comment was meant lightly, but it was a little out of place with the laws. I don't go around making fun of the Bill of Rights - the Charter deserves the same respect. Anyway, I actually think common-law marriage laws are stupid. We should just get rid of them, they aren't really useful to anyone. If people wanted to get married then they would - if two people want to live together I see no reason to mess around with their marital status.
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02-26-2005, 11:28 AM | #142 | ||
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Last edited by -elfearz- : 02-26-2005 at 11:30 AM. |
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02-26-2005, 11:35 AM | #143 |
Elf Lord
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Geez, Nurv,
It took 9 weeks for you to get riled! I've heard that Canadians were laid back but this is a bit much even for ya'll, isn't it? Speaking in terms of marriage, the Primates of the Anglican Communion have affirmed the Lambeth Statement on Human Sexuality 1998. They have further asked the ACA and ECUSA to voluntarily remove themselves from the Anglican Consultative Council until 2008 - that means to absent themselves from Communion-wide events - because of the erring stances taken by Canada and the USA churches on the issues of homosexuality/marriage/consecration/etc. I will post the accessible sites for the documents from ECUSA, but I am less familiar with the ACA web stuff. This is for discussion of course if you should like. For information based on our prior discussions if you would like. ECUSA site: report and initial reactions http://demo.episcopalchurch.org/3577_59050_ENG_HTM.htm see particularly article #14 of the Communique by the Primates.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 02-26-2005 at 11:39 AM. Reason: additon of link(s) |
02-26-2005, 12:04 PM | #144 | ||||
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I don't know if I'd read the articles though Inked, to be honest. If my "section" of the church gets kicked out, well... meh. I won't stop going (in my mind, since I haven't actually gone to church in ages).
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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02-26-2005, 07:44 PM | #145 | |
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It's okay if you do not wish to read them. "Kicked out" is precisely the opposite of what has been recommended. To voluntarily absent oneself so as to reflect on the cited Lambeth statement, the Windsor Report recommendations, and to respond is a very Anglican way of saying "best think long and hard about your actions for you are separating yourself from the rest of us." It remains true that both ACA and ECUSA have been put on notice that if they continue to persist in their removal of themselves from the Anglican consensus, they will have chosen "to walk apart" - but they will not be "kicked out" (though some wish that would indeed happen). The fact that they are not in accord with Anglican teaching has been made UNAVOIDABLY OBVIOUS to them. It is up to ACA or ECUSA to face the consequences of their choices. They are the ones who made them. The Communique notes that each has to act in accord with its Province rules and regulations to resolve the issues OFFICIALLY one way or another. This is a very Brit mode, to my mind. "Listen here, ACA and ECUSA, you chaps are not cricket. See to it. We give you leave to 2008 to declare yourselves with us or no. Tally-ho!"
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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02-27-2005, 01:28 PM | #146 | ||||
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Moreover, I don't know whether in those times in that tribe, consummation was a foundamental part of marriage or not EDIT: I had forgotten the most important part: yay for same-sex marriage Last edited by The Wizard from Milan : 02-27-2005 at 01:30 PM. |
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02-27-2005, 01:39 PM | #147 |
Elven Maiden
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That's a good way of thinking about it, Wizard from Milan (do you have a nickname?). There are a lot of different kinds of marriage. That's an easier way of thinking about it. Of course, that seems to make my marriage to a Coke bottle a few years ago valid, haha. But, that's why I was wondering about different groups to see what, if anything, is the universal definition of marriage. What is shared with most groups?
As for the "Virgin Mary" thing, the whole point of that was that my mom was saying that gays cannot officially marry because you have to have sexual intercourse and be capable of producing offspring. (I asked her about what if a man or woman was not fertile for whatever reason if they could still marry. I was surprised that she actually said no.) I never got a good answer concerning the problem of there being a tradition of a virgin who was married though. I'm not asking if it's true, I'm just saying that if sexual intercourse was necessary for all marriages then the tradition wouldn't exist, one would think. I'm agnostic, by the way. |
02-27-2005, 04:29 PM | #148 | ||
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I think I have given my best shot at the virgin Mary question. I think others more expert than I am should give theirs |
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03-15-2005, 03:42 PM | #149 |
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bump
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-15-2005, 03:52 PM | #150 | ||
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I always thought that, in the context of the culture of the writers of the Bible and the people about whom they were writing, the word 'virgin' mean a young woman. Now over many years, the meaning of the word has changed to mean someone who has never had sexual intercourse. If the modern meaning is applied to the ancient text, you could say that Mary had never had sex. However, I don't think this is what the writers of the Bible were thinking.
The Wizard from Milan has another nickname coined by Chrys - Il Milano Mago. In my opinion, a couple's ability to produce off-spring is not an important factor of marriage in today's society. Where would you draw the line anyway? Are you married only once you're pregnant? Or when the baby is born? What if you could have children, but choose not to? Would you just not be married until you actively try to have children? If this was societies accepted definition of marriage, how on earth would you legislate this?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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03-15-2005, 03:52 PM | #151 |
The Intermittent One
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ok so-i aint yet seubscribed to this thread
i am now |
03-15-2005, 04:35 PM | #152 |
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I am going to petition my representatives to adopt the marriage custom of Tolkien's elves!
Nurvi - yes, it means "young woman", but the Bible also states specifically that she had not yet had sexual relations. And "young woman" used in a culture can also have the specific implication of not yet having had sexual relations.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-15-2005, 05:10 PM | #153 |
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And, Nurv, when the Hebrew "Textus Receptus" was translated into Greek for the Hellenistic Jews, the word in Hebrew "young woman" was translated "virgin" (parthenos, IIRC) which tells us what the intended meaning of the word was for the Hebrew!
So your argument that the meaning of the word has become more restricted doesn't hold H2O any better than a sieve! The translators had a clear understanding of the meaning and chose it! In addition to clarifying it as Rian notes above! As to what constitutes marriage and when, I refer you to my earlier and multiple posts on this thread on that subject!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-15-2005, 05:14 PM | #154 | |
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03-15-2005, 05:46 PM | #155 | |
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As per request, I repost here the same message that I posted in the thread gay, lesbian, bisexual
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Shall I post it there too? I don't mind |
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03-15-2005, 05:55 PM | #156 | |
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Yes and Greek provides just such a distinction which is why the word choice was and is so telling, LCoU.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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03-15-2005, 06:09 PM | #157 |
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See my priors #3 - !39 (no! not all of those are mine, just the ones in there that are mine!!!)
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
03-15-2005, 06:50 PM | #158 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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The arrogance of that judge insults me and millions of other thoughtful, caring Californians, who DO think when they go to vote, and they vote for what they think is best for everyone involved. That judge's statement implies that the voters who voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman don't bother to think, but just vote the way they do "because it's always been this way!". The GALL of that statement! The more I think about it, the madder I get. And this judge is supporting the US?! I thought Americans fought for their independence so that individuals could NOT dictate to us! and here is an individual, this judge, steamrolling over the majority of Californians! I repeat the challenge - persuade us! If you can't persuade us, then perhaps you're WRONG! *gasp* Don't descend to insults and abusing your power to steamroll over what the citizens of our state have voted for!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-15-2005 at 06:53 PM. |
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03-15-2005, 07:36 PM | #159 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I started a thread called "Homosexual Marriage", because katya (the thread starter) said in her opening post that she didn't want to discuss it on this thread
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-16-2005, 04:55 PM | #160 |
Elven Maiden
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Once again, thank you my darling R*an!
The bottom line with the "virgin mary" thing is that there are people somewhere who, regardless of what misunderstanding might have occured, believe she was a virgin forever through everything. I don't think this traditition would've existed if what my mom was trying to say was true. To any married women here, when you were little did you want to be married? Sometimes when I'm doing the dishes I pretend I'm married to this guy......a guy of no consequence... I don't know, I guess it makes me happy to think I'm a "good wife" because I like him so much, you know? I wonder if it's wrong to think about being a "good wife" and a traditional family structure. I mean, if the girl *wants* it like that. I suppose maybe it *is* sexist and all, but I don't really mind. |
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