03-02-2005, 01:59 PM | #141 |
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Actually Rian - the moth theory is not bogus. White moths on dark trees will show up much more readily to it's predators - than moths that fit in with it's surroundings. I can't believe you so hardly dismiss this - yet at the same time say that some miraculous unseen being created us out of nothing.
And yes - I used the rollyeyes and I don't really give a damn.
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03-02-2005, 02:43 PM | #142 | |
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03-02-2005, 04:44 PM | #143 | |
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BTW - as I've said numerous times before - I see no evidence of creationism - other than people just claiming that god can do anything, therefore it happened that way. Are there pieces missing in the fossil record - of course they are. But it's a lot more scientific and logical that we evolved and changed over billions of years than we were just plopped down on the face of the earth by some super-mystical unseen creature.
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03-02-2005, 05:33 PM | #144 |
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well said JD
we seem to be in agreeance on a couple of threads here and there!! |
03-02-2005, 06:24 PM | #145 | |||
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What I said was that Kettlewell's experiment was "a vastly flawed experiment". Let me explain why. (I wasn't saying that it wasn't easier for birds to eat light moths on dark trees. As I said, that's pretty obvious!) The biggest flaw in the experiment, IMO, is that Kettlewell did NOT use the natural resting place, nor the natural activity time, of peppered moths! These moths are night-fliers, and normally find resting places high up on trees (NOT the trunks) before dawn. The moths he released in the daytime remained exposed, and were easy targets - but this was NOT what they do naturally! In fact, one naturalist, in 25 years of field work, found only ONE peppered moth naturally perched on a tree trunk, and concluded that they knew "where moths do NOT spend the day." The experiment was a flawed experiment. I"m not even saying that natural selection doesn't occur, but IMO, I don't think a deeply flawed experiment should be used to support something. Do you? And his conclusions, altho consistent with the (flawed) experiment, were not even consistent throughout England. In some places, they ran exactly opposite to expectations! In rural Wales, the frequency of dark moths was higher than would be predicted by Kettlewell's experiment. In East Anglia, where there was little pollution and lights seemed better camouflaged, darks reached a frequency of 80%. In south Wales, darks seemed better camouflaged, yet they were only 20% of the population. And after passage of an anti-pollution legislation, the proportion of darks north of London decreased as expected, but unexplainably increased in the south. And in the north, the increase in lights happened WITHOUT an increase in the lichen! And all this evidence counter to Kettlewell's experiment shouldn't be a surprise, since the experiment was flawed, because Kettlewell did NOT use the natural resting place nor the natural activity time of peppered moths. Quote:
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03-02-2005, 06:37 PM | #146 | |
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I could point you to my multi-post write-up on evidence supporting creationism, but based on my scientific observations of your usual attitude in this thread, I doubt if you would give it any serious consideration. That's certainly your choice. I'll just say that it involves things like looking for mechanisms and data that support its hypotheses, just like evolution. And things to look for include items that could NOT have developed slowly and in small steps, given their design (IOW, they require a design and creation), and mechanisms that tend to KEEP living things basically as they are. Of course evolution looks for the opposite - things that COULD have developed slowly and in small steps, and mechanisms that could ALLOW living things to radically change beyond what we've ever observed.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-02-2005, 06:39 PM | #147 |
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yes, but the poin of evolutionary theories is there is no radical change, it happens gradually over many millions of years
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03-02-2005, 08:21 PM | #148 |
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Chrys, evolution posits a cumulative change that is radical. How long something takes does not magically take away difficulties If there are obstacles to something happening at all, it doesn't matter if the claim is that it happens quickly or it happens slowly. As I said before, all we EVER scientifically observe is minor changes, perfectly consistent with what creationism posits.
It's unfortunate for the theory of evolution that it states a great deal of time is required, but that does NOT give it a free pass and a "scientifically proven as fact" sticker It's unproven, and it remains unproven, because it's unproveable. The best evolutionists can come up with is that we can observe small characteristic shifts in populations that already have that characteristic (IOW, NOT from beneficial mutation), and given enough time, this MIGHT lead to fish-archetypes changing to giraffes.
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03-03-2005, 09:15 AM | #149 | |
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There are many examples in mathematics. Perfect numbers for instance. No one has ever seen an uneven perfect number and people have tried to prove that odd perfect numbers don't exist. They've all been unsuccessful. However everything suggests there are only even perfect numbers but it's still only a theory, a theory that I believe most mathematician accept as a fact. (There are other, better mathematical examples that require more advanced knowledge. Ask me and I'll see if I can find them ). There are examples in medicine too. With some drugs, you can't prove that they have any metabolic effect that would help a person in anyway, yet the drugs still work. The doctors don't know how or why the drugs work but they still know it has to do with the metabolism. It's sort of like the theory of evolution, you can't see evolution directly but you can see its effects and the traces it has left in organisms. Evolution isn't entirely unproven though. It's true that evolution regarding more 'complex' organisms such as humans can't be seen 'in action' since you would have to observe the organisms for a very long time. That is because complex organisms reproduce too slowly. That is not the case with microorganisms such as bacteria and viruses and I'm sure they've been mentioned earlier in this thread. They exchange genetic material way way faster than us, thus they evolve faster too. This can be seen in a microscope. Entirely new species of bacteria and viruses can evolve in basically no time at all. Often there have been 'crossovers' between two different kinds of bacteria/viruses that have spawned a new species. This new species can evolve further by exchanging genes with another newly evolved species with completely different genes - and then this evolutionary chain reaction can go on. It took only a few decades for HIV, a whole new kind of retrovirus, to evolve and spread to humans. One can say that you can't compare bacteria and viruses with humans but I'd say you can. We share a lot of biochemical simularities with these little fellows, we function in much the same way so of course we are subjects to evolution too. Evolution works slowly but it can sometime take big leaps forward. It takes time for the genetic material to change to the better if it's only subject to mutations. However, as is the case with bacteria and viruses, there can be 'crossovers', giving the organism a new set of genes to play around with. There are plants that have somehow managed to bread with each other and get an offspring that have been even more successful at surviving and spreading than its ancestors, that it has started to supplant them. A few more crossovers and the botanists in the future would have to consider the plants not only a new race, but a new species. Finally I'd like to mention the typing monkey analogy. That is, a monkey randomly poking a typewriter could, if enough time was given, for instance write a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet. This would take an awful lot of time - unless the monkey when he hit a correct key were actually told it was correct and the monkey could remember that. Suddenly it would take very little time compared to before. Check this site out. The thing is that proteins seem to 'remember' when they're folding in a beneficial way. So the theory goes - during the evolution, partly correct intermediates of proteines have been retained in organisms and have been able to evolve further. Sometimes, the intermediates have 'forgotten' how they're supposed to fold but they still 'remember' more than they 'forget'. So if you look at the biochemical properties of the things we’re all made of – proteins and other molecules – they fit very well in the theory of evolution. Wow, this ended up being a lenghty post. Hope someone takes the time to read it . Btw, notice how in this thread, RÃ*an uses the "" smiley where others would have used the "" smiley. Now that's the way people should post! Kudos to RÃ*an
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03-03-2005, 09:46 AM | #150 | ||
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Wow, great post Jonathan! You articulated a lot of points very well.
RÃ*an does deserve kudos! Even though she did start the thread, it's still hard being the only proponent of intelligent design and creationism in here.
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03-03-2005, 11:12 AM | #151 |
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excellent post, jonathan, very, erm, what's the word i'm looking for? idiom, sir? no patsy, wrong thread! informative? yes, patsy, very informative
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03-03-2005, 12:38 PM | #152 | |
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As for the peppered moth experiment it came about as a study of how pollution affected the lives of organizations. Around pollution causing industries which left a black soot on trees, white moths who were normally safe from preditors - all of a sudden found themselves exposed. The darker moths however survived under those conditions because they remained well hidden.
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03-03-2005, 12:46 PM | #153 | ||
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03-03-2005, 04:51 PM | #154 | ||
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I think a problem with discussing evolution vs. creationism is ignorance from both sides. Sometimes evolutionists have poor knowledge of how evolution really works and at the same time they might not be that educated about the bible. The same thing sometimes goes for people supporting creationism. Understanding is the key to a good discussion.
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As far as I know the genes for the darker colour have existed for a very long time. The genes are recessive, which is why most moths are white. However some moths still turn black if they're unlucky to get 'bad' genes. In areas where it's actually beneficial to be dark, the black moths don't die as easily as they would otherwise and can therefore spread their 'bad' genes and give birth to even more dark moths. This is just natural adaption - a step towards further evolution but still far from it. The moths population has the dark genes, it's just not always they're expressed. Quote:
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03-03-2005, 04:59 PM | #155 | |||
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I haven't heard anything that Rian has said that will make me say "oh yeah - creationism is possible or probable - or even believable" Quote:
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03-03-2005, 05:16 PM | #156 | ||
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And if he is on the wrong side how will he explain parasites which are disined for a spific thing?
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03-03-2005, 05:22 PM | #157 | |
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From a scientific point of view, there is nothing strange at all about the evolution of parasites or organisms living in symbiosis either.
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03-03-2005, 05:25 PM | #158 | |
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as is the same with giraffes and acacia trees when i can find the appropriate book, i will make a proper post on the nature of the Red Queen |
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03-03-2005, 05:30 PM | #159 | |
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You know here -
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03-03-2005, 07:22 PM | #160 | |
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I know we've discussed this before.
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