Gays, lesbians, bisexuals, PART II

[Rían]

What would YOU suggest using, Wizard? At least what Lief mentioned isn't subjective.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

And I recently read a study that said no man is bisexual,

You and your studies and bible quotes. I think it's pretty funny that you and Ri, no offense to either of you, but you both love to post so long in this thread about being Gay and/or Bi. Are you latently homosexual, perhaps? That is not an insult, lest you get all huffy and fluffy-feathered, Lief. But why is it that you feel the need to go to such great lengths, both of you, to denounce homosexuality and spout bible verses and "studies" to back up your claims that homosexuality is wrong and sinful? It rankles me, every time, just seeing the first line of every post you put up here, Lief. And once again, I am NOT flaming or trying to be rude. It is odd, that's all I'm saying. More than odd, but I won't elaborate.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

You and your studies and bible quotes. I think it's pretty funny that you and Ri, no offense to either of you, but you both love to post so long in this thread about being Gay and/or Bi. Are you latently homosexual, perhaps? That is not an insult, lest you get all huffy and fluffy-feathered, Lief. But why is it that you feel the need to go to such great lengths, both of you, to denounce homosexuality and spout bible verses and "studies" to back up your claims that homosexuality is wrong and sinful? It rankles me, every time, just seeing the first line of every post you put up here, Lief. And once again, I am NOT flaming or trying to be rude. It is odd, that's all I'm saying. More than odd, but I won't elaborate.

I'm not insulted; I think you're being very polite.

In response to your post, first I must point out that I have never in this thread used Bible quotes to support my position. The "anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has committed adultery with her in his heart," passage was only mentioned to explain why in the past I thought that I should remove all sexual desire from my life. It wasn't an attack on homosexuality.

Second, in this thread I have not been arguing that homosexuality is wrong and sinful. I don't think RÃ*an has been arguing that either. What I've been getting from her posts so far is that she's been arguing that people should not be persecuted for wanting to change from homosexual to heterosexual.

I've been arguing that homosexuality is not genetic, for I think there is a good deal of evidence of this.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

Yes, I read about the study too. I did not ready the study per se, so I won't comment about methodological flaws. What is ridiculously flawed is to equate engorgement of the penis with sexual orientation.

You're awesome TWFM!!

I don't see why men can't be bisexual, that's just dumb. My bisexual male friend would also quibble with that. No, he's not just faking it or whatever.

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

d'you know the worst thing i hear fom both straights and gays? bisexuals are either ettention seeking or are just plain greedy

*stabs*
It's kind of too bad, but also very much a testament to human nature, that some gay people are not very accepting of non-gays. Some people are really nasty to transgendered people, as if they needed any more flak.

Maybe in the minds of those (hopefully) few gay people, they have an "us versus them" mentality so firmly entrenched that they feel everyone except those of their specific sexual orientation is out to get them.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

That's why I didn't use absolutes; I used qualifiers.

I know, that's why I said "I know you don't think that" or whatever I said.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

See, that's interesting that you said that ... you, obviously, think that's wrong, and yet I see exactly that from many homosexuals towards people that want to go to groups like Exodus! "You are a homosexual, and you are WRONG to want to change to heterosexual!" And that just sets me off

I wouldn't say that to the gay people, because their sexuality is their business. Choosing to become celibate is one thing, choosing to have sex with a gender for which you feel no sexual desire whatsoever is another.

Brokeback Mountain? Anyone?

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I don't think our genitals and what we desire to do with them (and with who) define us, to put it crudely. I think our sexuality is only one part of what makes a person, and we are NOT slaves to the desires it sends up in that area, or any other. I think there is something in every person that is ABOVE our urges in ANY area, and can decide what to do with the urges, and THAT part is the important part in us.

I agree that our sexuality is only one part of what makes a person, but I also do not see why someone should feel they have to change that part of themselves.

I'd rather that that higher thinking part of us accepts ourselves for who we are, and others for who they are.

While we agree on a number of points, I'm coming from the view that homosexuality (the sexuality, and the acts of) are right, and your view is that the acts of homosexuality are wrong. So, I can see that we're not quite going to reconcile on that point.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Why? That is an indicator of sexual desire among men. At least, it is with me . If someone doesn't experience this much at all with people of one of the genders, it's an indicator that the person just isn't very sexually stimulated by people of that gender.

I think that bisexuality doesn't necessarily mean that you would be equally attracted to both genders. You could be, but if you were stimulated more by one gender than another you could still be bisexual.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think that bisexuality doesn't necessarily mean that you would be equally attracted to both genders. You could be,

That study didn't find this to be the case. Its bisexual subjects were much more inclined toward one gender than the other.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

but if you were stimulated more by one gender than another you could still be bisexual.

If a man is much more interested in women than in men, but somewhat interested in men, perhaps he is really just heterosexual.

I personally haven't formed a decision for myself on whether I believe male bisexuality exists or not. This is one evidence that suggests bisexuality among men doesn't exist, but I haven't researched the matter thoroughly and don't usually start believing something based on just one piece of evidence or logic. I'd like to research and think about it a good deal more first.

[Lotesse]

I know for a cold hard fact that male bisexuality exists. Two of my male bisexual friends had hard-core crushes on me - they both fell "in love" with me. I am bisexual, and I do not lean predominately toward either male or female; guys and women are both equally as attractive and sexually interesting to me.

[Renille]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That study didn't find this to be the case. Its bisexual subjects were much more inclined toward one gender than the other.

Yeah, I don't know about that. I would like to see that study,actually. Bisexual people by that very definition are attracted to both sexes equally. However, when they find a partner who they're happy with, they're obviously going to be more attracted to that person and that gender
OR maybe I'm just touchy about this because my best friend happens to be bisexual..ha.She certainly is inclined towards both sexes. She has a girlfriend right now, but we drool over the same male celebrities. If one person proves anything, then I'm going to have to highly doubt this.Hmm.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Renille

Yeah, I don't know about that. I would like to see that study,actually. Bisexual people by that very definition are attracted to both sexes equally. However, when they find a partner who they're happy with, they're obviously going to be more attracted to that person and that gender

I don't think so. Lotesse has in other threads been talking about the fact that she has a boyfriend, and yet she claims to have inclination for both genders equally. So from her experience, it doesn't really look like having a partner would make a person particularly interested in that partner's gender. Though I wish that were true .

Originally Posted by Renille

OR maybe I'm just touchy about this because my best friend happens to be bisexual..ha.She certainly is inclined towards both sexes. She has a girlfriend right now, but we drool over the same male celebrities. If one person proves anything, then I'm going to have to highly doubt this.Hmm.

The study was about male bisexuals. I mentioned that in at least two of my previous posts (not that you're expected to read everything I write, of course; I'm just being a bit defensive ).

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I know for a cold hard fact that male bisexuality exists. Two of my male bisexual friends had hard-core crushes on me - they both fell "in love" with me.

There is clear proof that there are males who think they are bisexual, and behave like bisexuals. Yet if they are significantly more inclined toward one gender than the other, perhaps they aren't really bisexual.

I won't try to argue about whether or not this is the case with your friends; that would be just stupid. I don't know them.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

That study didn't find this to be the case. Its bisexual subjects were much more inclined toward one gender than the other.

I haven't read the study so I'm not going to debate it in detail, but my point was that you don't have to be equally attracted to both sexes to be bisexual.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

If a man is much more interested in women than in men, but somewhat interested in men, perhaps he is really just heterosexual.

But he is interested in men too, so maybe he's bisexual. Only he would no for sure anyway.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I personally haven't formed a decision for myself on whether I believe male bisexuality exists or not. This is one evidence that suggests bisexuality among men doesn't exist, but I haven't researched the matter thoroughly and don't usually start believing something based on just one piece of evidence or logic. I'd like to research and think about it a good deal more first.

Yeah, that is definitely a subject that would require a lot of study.

The idea that bisexuality might not exist in men never crossed my mind, because what the heck!?

Why are women capable of being bisexual and men, allegedly, aren't? I think our society puts too much emphasis on the differences between men and women, to the point of fabricating differences. This could be one of them.

Edited because I left out my point.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

I think it's pretty funny that you and Ri, no offense to either of you, but you both love to post so long in this thread about being Gay and/or Bi.

One reason that I like to post here because it's an interesting topic with lots of implications personally and in society.

Another reason that I like to post here is because I see huge gaps of logic in the arguments I typically hear from the pro-homosexual side, and I like to analyze and discuss them.

Another reason I like to post here is because I've learned a lot from others.

The MAIN reason I like to post here is to dispel the HUGELY wrong misconception that ALL (or most) Christians HATE homosexuals!!! That just makes me HUGELY mad, because it's SO untrue, and it's SO destructive to both sides being able to get along and be friends. And I think I've been able to show my heart on this issue to many here, and hopefully I've killed that despicable lie.

There's some homosexuals on the Moot, and I consider them friends. In fact, sometimes I forget who has said they're homosexual and who hasn't - which should show that I don't keep some huge blacklist anywhere.

There have been VERY few people that I haven't liked on the Moot, and NONE of the ones that I haven't liked have been homosexual, at least that I know of. I think most of the homosexuals here are nicer than many of the hets. Whatever. They're people - and if they're nice and intelligent and polite and fun, then I'd like to be friends with them.

I do, however, have an opinion about homosexuality, just like everyone else here, and on a thread that discusses homosexuality, I'll express my opinions, like everyone else.

Are you latently homosexual, perhaps?

Sure, that's a possibility, and it's a possibility that the homosexuals are posting here because they're latently heterosexual and they want to be convinced to switch. Whatever. Anything's possible. But I don't think either is likely.

It rankles me, every time, just seeing the first line of every post you put up here, Lief.

And that "right-wing Christian haters" line that you used rankled ME, and I ask you again to provide specifics, so people here can evaluate your claim. I don't think you should be able to get away with vague, general-type insults like that, so I'm calling on you to provide proof of the hate. And what is a line like that good for, anyway? What good does it do? I can't think of any good it does.

[Jonathan]

Long post ahead.

First I'd like to say that nothing is black & white. You can't always divide people into groups by their sexual orientation. There will be grey areas between hetero- and homosexual, as well as between homo- and bisexual. No clear lines can ever be defined. I adress this mainly to the Christian posters in this thread, since it seems to me that they've been very quick regard these various sexual orientations as clearly defined groups. A homosexual person who shows some slight interest in the same sex does not necessarily make him heterosexual or even bisexual.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I've been arguing that homosexuality is not genetic, for I think there is a good deal of evidence of this.

I believe there are studies that show it is likely that genetics can't be the single contributor to homosexuality. That is not to say "there is a good deal of evidence" that homosexuality is not inheritable. The word "evidence" should be used with consideration and I hardly believe such evidence exists. Lief, I think you might have confused evidence with study results. Evidence can be the result of studies but studies do not always (relatively seldom, I'd say) result in clear evidence.

I think it is very probable that such a complex thing like sexual orientation is not ruled solely by genes - the environment is likely to influence a lot as well.
As of today we simply do not know how much our genes are involved, nor do we know how capable the environment is to influence our sexual preferation.
There are studies that suggest that genes are involved and there are other studies that suggest the involvement of the environment. Well perhaps both are involved. Anyway, it would take one hell of a study to definitely prove anything, to lay forth actual evidence.

And maybe it doesn't really matter whether evidence shows homosexuality is genetic. We can never make such a generalization. There will always be fluctuations. If homosexuality were in most cases genetic, there would still be some persons who would be gay despite their "heterosexual" heritage, persons who you can't just ignore. Fluctuations can really "screw up" a scientific study but they always have to be taken into consideration when you present your results.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There is clear proof that there are males who think they are bisexual, and behave like bisexuals. Yet if they are significantly more inclined toward one gender than the other, perhaps they aren't really bisexual.

Again, I think you should be careful with the usage of words like "proof" or "evidence". However you are correct when you say bisexual men exist, no doubt about that. I've met a few, since there are quite a few openly bisexual men in sexually liberated Sweden

It sounds natural to me that individual bisexuals are inclined towards one gender or the other. However, if half of the bisexual "community" sway toward men and the other half toward women, the average bisexual person wouldn't be inclined toward any gender at all. And there's no such thing as the average person, he/she does not exist

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

...Another reason that I like to post here is because I see huge gaps of logic in the arguments I typically hear from the pro-homosexual side, and I like to analyze and discuss them....

You can't get away from the gaps of logic. They're always there, no matter if you're discussing abortion, the war in Iraq or intelligent design. These gaps of logic can be heard from BOTH sides in any discussion and this thread is no exception.

[Lief Erikson]

I'll respond to your post as soon as I can, Jonathan.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

You can't get away from the gaps of logic. They're always there, no matter if you're discussing abortion, the war in Iraq or intelligent design. These gaps of logic can be heard from BOTH sides in any discussion and this thread is no exception.

Point them out, then! Don't make sweeping accusations without evidence.

[Renille]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't think so. Lotesse has in other threads been talking about the fact that she has a boyfriend, and yet she claims to have inclination for both genders equally. So from her experience, it doesn't really look like having a partner would make a person particularly interested in that partner's gender. Though I wish that were true .

The study was about male bisexuals. I mentioned that in at least two of my previous posts (not that you're expected to read everything I write, of course; I'm just being a bit defensive ).

Well, my point actually was that at the MOMENT they felt more attracted to that sex because of that person, and that I hoped this study looked into the dating status of the people they were studying. That's about it.
And I know it was about male bisexuals. I was just explaining my own connection with this topic in general, and part of the reason I stand where I do on it. No worries.

AND I really have nothing more to say, you're all getting off easy today. Ee!

[Nurvingiel]

I edited my previous post to say:

"I haven't read the study so I'm not going to debate it in detail, but my point was that you don't have to be equally attracted to both sexes to be bisexual."

because I accidentally left out my point. I thought it was a big enough edit to repost though. Heh.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

First I'd like to say that nothing is black & white. You can't always divide people into groups by their sexual orientation. There will be grey areas between hetero- and homosexual, as well as between homo- and bisexual. No clear lines can ever be defined.

I agree with you, Jonathan, esp. when you get into the area of urges/desires. However, many behaviors can be clearly defined in this area.

[Old toby's wicked weed]

this tolkien forum is the wierdest ever - the teacup has gay?? vicars in looking in showers, gay men ditching ntheir partners, drunken pool parties, here we have bi-sexuality etc.

Do not get me wrong i have not a problem, it is a odd but fun. I just follow what is posted. But Does anyone talk about the lord of the rings?

Is there anywhere for tolkien, or am i completely lost?

2 people from the entmoot suggested threads but i cvannot to see them.

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

You're on the wrong forum Toby. Go to the top and click on 'Entmoot' or 'Other Topics'.

And, to be on topic...

Nowhere have I ever heard a definition of bi-sexuality that said a person had to be equally attracted to both genders.

I don't think there is a good way to define what being Bi is. It is a much fuzzier concept than either homo or hetero sexuality.

From my personal experience:

I'm in a relationship with a female, so technically I could say that I am homo-sexual.
But I was in a relationship with a male, and while I was with him I felt genuinely attracted to him and during that time I did still identify myself as straight.

But now, if I identified myself as either straight or lesbian it would deny the validity of the excluded relationship which wouldn't be right, because the attraction for the male was real and my attraction to my current partner is real. And if I see an attractive member of either gender I take notice. Therefore I identify myself as bi.

This doesn't prove anything except for myself, but it hopefully makes a bit of sense.

[Nurvingiel]

That absolutely makes sense Lady Marion! Thanks.

Sounds like Old Toby has been sampling too much of his weed.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Lady Marion Magdalena

......, but it hopefully makes a bit of sense.

probably more than we need to know but cathartic for you, I presume.

[Lotesse]

WHAT?! Spock. That's not more than we needed to know!! And it was definitely useful information, far far more so than non-gay Lief with his studies and "evidence." Why do you gotta go and make someone here who is opening up and sharing, feel funny for doing so by saying something like that, Spock?? I mean, WTF? Lady M's post made all the sense in the WORLD to me and to a number of posters who regularly post here, and she hit the nail on the head as far as how I feel, right in her second-to-last paragraph there. It felt great to see a fellow Bi-girl speak up and clarify about something that is so personal yet affects so many of us bisexual human beings. Please, Spock, try and be a little more sensitive in the future, will ya?