Evil in Middle-Earth

[Haradrim]

the left...
and why is murder evil. I believe it is evil. But why? why is stealing evil? whats wrong with it?

And again I do admit I have no leg because there really is nothing to base this on other than my having thought about it for a long time. Not as long as most philosophers or as long as the grand scape of things but still long relative.... to my life.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Haradrim

However what if you were to go to a planet where evil was perfectly acceptable and the majority of the people did not view murder as a bad thing but in fact that it was good. Then to them murder is good.

Majority, minority, hootnanny. Murder is evil because by definition it harms another being that the murderer has no mandate from society to do so. Evil, as I say is an easily identifiable and definable quality. Democracy has nothing to do with it, no matter how much you argue it. You need to cite an instance that murder was actually considered a good thing, generally, and you can't. http://www.theoasisforums.com/non-cg...ys/whackya.gif

[Haradrim]

Once again I am nto saying people voted on it I am jst saying that we are all taught what is "good" and what is "evil". I by no means have to cite a case in which murder was a good thing. but I cna come up with a hypothetical case on another planet where such a thing never went to jury because it was not a crime. If everyone on our planet was taught that murder was good and a few of us were taught that it was evil. We would think of them as evil and they would htink of us as evil but because we are the majority they would be the evil ones in our eyes. I could even make a claim to the fact that there is no universal evil or good but that it is all dependent on the place you live and what the majority there believe. I know many of us believe in God here and someone is eventuallyg oign to make the argument including God. I know I cant disprove that theroy so I am not going to try and disprove GOd because I dont know myself.

[Attalus]

You miss the whole point. Evil is not subjective. It doesn't matter what people think. Evil does harm. That some hypothetical person might or might not think so is unimportant.

[Haradrim]

but who says what is evil and what isnt? Why is murdering evil?

[Wayfarer]

The definition of Evil says so. Which is what Attalus is trying to get across - Evil can be defined as something that does harm - so murder is evil. Another way of defining Evil is 'Something contrary to Iluvatar's will' or even, as I've suggested, 'something less than perfect good'.

Again, it doesn't matter what people think. Even if /everyone/ was made to believe that murder was 'good', that wouldn't make it good, just like everyone believing 1+1=1 doesn't make it true. There are facts, and they don't care whether or not a majority agrees with them.

[Haradrim]

I hate to break it to you but evil is not a fact nor is it something that is universal in the universe. Evil is not a fact nor an absolutely definable thing. there is no definition of evil. In ME against the will of Illuvatar does mean evil but isnt everything apart of Illuvatars plan. He says that to Melkor in the Sil. Cant quote it but he says every evil you do and everything you do against me will be part of my plan. Meaning that nothing is against Illuvatars will. Meaning evil is a belief meaning there is no real absolute definable evil action.

[inked]

Haradrim,

Come over here so I can cut off your head and prove that there is no evil .

GK Chesterton observed that when people denied the doctrine of sin, they denied the one empirically verifiable truth of Christianity.

I would modify that to say that when people deny evil they deny the one empirically verifiable truth of Middle Earth and our daily existence. Some religions go so far as to allege it all illusion.

You know that good and evil are not relative in thought, word, or deed in your very being...unless by steady willful ignorance you have convinced yourself otherwise.

[Haradrim]

How is iti ignorance. It is a way of thinking> i am not Chrisitan and am not bound by those doctrines. I have spent many an hour thinking about this. I believe what most people believe in this world to be evil. Murder is evil, so is raping, stealing, all that stuff but I do not believe that for every culture in the universe that is evil. Also you did not reply to my claim about Illuvatar's plan. Everything is Illuvatars plan he made that clear when he spoke to melkor. If everything is in his plan than how can anything be good or evil it is just in his plan. Illuvatar is not bound by good and evil. he just made a plan and that plan will be carried out. In this world evil is evil because the majority say it is or it is the way the majority thinks> Most humans naturally feel one way or the other abhotu good and evil however in some alien world this may not be true. There may be no good and no evil. It is completely relative.

[inked]

Haradrim,

How is it ignorance, you ask? It is ignoring the fact that you elevate to supreme value one thing: relativity of good and evil. If there is one absolute, it is an absolute good because evil is derivative.

Ergo, you know this except if you wilfully ignore it!

[Haradrim]

Exactly you just said it yourself. Evil is derivative. We dont know everything in this universe. There are probably other civilizations and other races. What if in fact we are the derivative. Then we are evil. You said it yourself. Thank you. Thank you very much. Evil is relative to the majority> Even if we are int he minority than it is still relative We are just on the opposite side.

[inked]

Precisely, Haradrim, we are derivative. All nature and morality is derivative. The first and greatest evil is to attempt to ignore that fact and elevate oneself to the place of the Creator, either God or Eru, and is known as pride and hubris. Exactly as Tolkein demonstrated in ME. The Creator is not mocked in this world or ME. Exactly as Tokein demonstrated in ME. The incorporation of the prideful rebellions in both worlds required redemption, not validation of evil, by the Creator. Funny, though, in both Creation and subCreation the truly evil always proffer exaltation of self as true fulfilment when leading the unwary into the trap of self-doom. Interesting, no?

[Wayfarer]

The question is, of course, derivative from what?

I think the dissagreement stems from precisely this question.

[BeardofPants]

Derivitive from nothing. Derivative, OTOH....

[inked]

Wayfarer,

You sly dog, you. You know the answer!



BoP,

The fallacy of materialism means that your thoughts are merely the product of random motions of atoms and have not a whit of meaning. Nice exchanging random atomic motions with you . Instead of Schrodinger's cat, however, in your case we have pantssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss !

[inked]

Whether in Middle Earth or our Earth
It was Iluvatar/Eru or God gave birth
Bestowing all of worth
Redeeming/ransoming pride's smirch
"Good has not changed", Aragorn's turf,
Lewis,Tolkein, Sayers et alia surf
The wild,unexpected lurch
Sin, Incarnation, Undone Curse!


That clear enough on derivations?

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by inked

unless by steady willful ignorance you have convinced yourself otherwise.

Best description of Haradim's mental processes I have ever read. There is no definition of evil? How about this: "Evil is cruelty and injustice." It does not matter whit how much you argue against it, Haradim, evil is evil, recognizable by any rational being. True, some things are mixtures of good and evil, as Wayfarer pointed out, but it is the sorting and allocation that is difficult, not the nature of good and evil. I am still waiting for the examples of what you say from the real world.

[Wayfarer]

Originally Posted by inked

Wayfarer,

You sly dog, you. You know the answer!

I am! I do!

[BeardofPants]

Originally Posted by inked

.... Nice exchanging random atomic motions with you .

::headbang::

Originally Posted by inked

Instead of Schrodinger's cat, however, in your case we have pantssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss !

Weeell.... I ain't tried to kill a pair of pants lately.

[Haradrim]

But Attalus, you would say that evil is cruelty and innjustice and so would everyone. But you just gave me three synnonyms. Not exactly but close enough. I would not say that evil is not cruelty an injustice. But who decides what is cruelty and injustice the majority of morals. Therefore that which goes against the morals of the majority is injusice and immoral and therefore evil. ANd everything was part fo Erus plan as he himself said to Melkor so how can there be such a thing as evil if it is all a part of his plan.