Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eärniel
I'm sorry RÃ*an, I did see your previous post but I interpretted it differently. You can keep your LoTR though. I'm not that evil.

Your new post gave me an answer but it also raises other questions. Now if I understand correctly this time people (any time any place but I'll leave that out for now) who do not know God or the bible can be saved since in a way they will know him through nature, moral codes, ect... That implies that they might know God in another context than the bible since they don't know the bible. Then how can you be sure that for instance the god of the jews or islamites isn't the christian god in another context? How can you be sure that they are disbelievers and will go to hell?

This is a very difficult subject, and I hesitated to get into such detail, because I knew it would involve some really gray areas. However, since it is such an important question, I decided to dive on in and try to explain what I think about it. What you are asking now is certainly a very logical follow-up question, and I'll address it soon (my poor brain needs a little break first!), but I can tell you in advance that there is not a lot written about it in the Bible. This does not impugn (I love that word!) the Bible in any way, it just means that for reasons of His own, God did not choose to let us in on a lot of details in this area. In the military, we refer to it as "need to know".

I think it has something to do (but this is just thinking out loud here... ) with the type of person that can get tied up in details about lots of other things, when it really boils down to "ok, here is what YOU PERSONALLY know, now what are YOU PERSONALLY going to do with it?" IOW, some people say "until I completely understand everything about Christianity I refuse to do anything about it!" instead of saying "the vast majority of this makes tremendous sense, especially as compared to other belief systems in terms of document authenticity and many other areas - I think it is safe to say that I as a finite being can't understand everything, but because of what I do understand, I choose to take that final step of faith (note - it is NOT brainless faith - it comes after a thoughtful evaluation) and put my faith in God and what Jesus did for me". This is VERY rough thoughts - like I said, I'm just thinking "out loud" here. What do you think about any of it?

I will enjoy talking this over with you (and anyone else that wants to participate - do you want to try asking your pastor, Khamul?), and I hope to learn more myself. I feel that I learned a lot over in the "melkor evil" thread because I was forced to really think through some things at a new depth in order to be able to post about it clearly. It's hard enough to communicate in words sometimes; writing is even more difficult (at least for me!)

I just paged back down to your post and re-looked at your question, and actually, I would say the quick answer is since I believe that the Bible states the truth (for various reasons which I can get into if you want to), the other religions say conflicting things about their god so he cannot be the same as the God of the Bible. But more later....

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I suffer from the same thing, Rian; I can have a real time of it trying to communicate some subjects; such as the one I've been trying to vocalize in this thread for a while, with very little success. Elves can also be difficult for me to put in words.

Anyway, historically, the God of Christians is the same as the God of the Jews and the God of the Muslims. I can understand that you are hesitant to say this about Allah, but why Adonai?

[Rían]

I don't understand your last paragraph, Gwaimir - is it addressed to me? If so, could you please elaborate a bit? I've done a lot of typing today, my head must be a bit befuddled! Also, what do you mean by "Elves can also be difficult for me to put in words" - do you mean your thoughts about Tolkien's elves?

------------------------------------------------------

On a totally different note, since I need a break from seriousness - here's a riddle that really goes over pretty good verbally, but I'm not sure if it will work typed out :

"Tom's mom has 3 kids - Nickel, Dime, and ....." (please provide the name of the third kid)

OK, any guesses?

[Andúril]

Wow! Now that's a toughy...

I'll leave this one to the clever people.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

About Elves, I mean explaining certain aspects about Elves to my brother and friends, especially aspects about their nature, what makes them Elves, etc.

About the other, I meant because if I am correct, the Muslims beliefs are different from Christianity in many respects, but as far as I know, Judaism is very similar.


The answer should be Tom.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
. . .and another question: doesn't it differ among the various sects of Christianity, who gets to go to Heaven and who doesn't? I recall something about the Puritans believing only certain people were pre-ordained for Heaven and everyone else is doomed.

I think what you're referring to is the doctrine of predestination, which is another one of those gray areas because there isn't a lot about it in the Bible, but basically (IMO) it says that God knew, before he even created us, who would be saved. Also sometimes a little more strongly stated, that He chooses those who will have faith in Him. I think that I dare not comment any further on this idea, because it is so complicated, and there isn't much written on it in the Bible, other than to put out the following thoughts:

• It makes sense, given that God is omniscient, that He would know who will choose to have faith in Him;
  Given that the justice of God is stressed over and over in the Bible, it is not unfair.

Again, as I said earlier, I think some concepts are just not able to be completely fathomed by our limited minds. This is one of those extremely complicated concepts. Let me try to explain what I mean by the parent/child analogy again. Try to explain what "love" means to a 2-year-old - you're bound to use some apparently contradictory statements. Or if a young kid has a sharp knife and is standing out of your reach - "put down the knife right now, please" - 'why? it's pretty and I like it' - "because it can hurt you really bad" - 'is it a bad knife? you told daddy when you made dinner that it was a really good knife' - "It's not a bad knife, it's just that it can hurt you" - 'but a good knife wouldn't hurt me!' - and so on.... do you get the idea? It is hard to express a difficult concept to an understanding that is limited, and often you say things that seem to be contradictory, but that actually provide a more complete picture of the entire truth. (Rather like the faith/works controversy - but that's for another post!)

Now multiply that gap in understanding by quite a bit - can you see how difficult it is to express some ideas of an infinitely wise mind in a language that is very limited? How about trying to define 'love' in words of one syllable? How about trying to reconcile saying "love is patient" with the idea of "I love you, and I have given you many chances to choose to stop abusing me, and you have chosen not to, so I am leaving you until I hear that you have enrolled in and are attending some counselling sessions and you meet these other reasonable conditions..." In the Bible (I Corinthians 13), it says that love is patient, yet it is not being 'patient' to stay in an abusive situation - it is not even loving towards the abuser, it is facilitating their sin (IMO). Yet it might appear that leaving someone is NOT being patient with them, when actually I would say that it is the most loving thing to do. Is love, then, NOT patient? I don't think that is a valid conclusion.

These are really tough topics, people, and I'm really spilling my guts here in front of you, and it's hard for me to do, but I don't want to present any false answers when I don't think there is an easy answer - I want to remain honest with you guys .... I sure wish I had more definitive answers for you, but I don't. All I can say is that what little IS said on that topic seems to me to be consistent with the rest of the Bible and with God's character and with reason. Any thoughts anyone cares to share?

Well, I meant to stick with only quick answers in this particular post, because I've typed a lot today, and look what I got into! I can only pray that I didn't turn anyone off because I couldn't give a quick and concise answer. However, maybe all my jumbled thoughts will make you guys think more, which is good . God bless you all.

[Rían]

*sees other people have posted while she was immersed in spilling her guts*

Oh, Gwaimir, you STINKER! You saw through it!! I was afraid it wouldn't work well typed out - most people say "Penny". It really works very well if you say it with a nice leading inflection -- "Nickle, dime, annnnnnddddddd ...."

Try it out on someone and let me know.

Now I'm going to go off somewhere and cry...I got too emotional over that last post....

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thank you, Rian! I think I'm beginning to understand now. . .your posts really help. *hands Rian a box of tissues in case she does cry*

Another question I had for the Christians out there--and Gwaimir has already spoken about this a little--Judaism is very similiar. For starters, most of the Christians from Rome way back when the Empire did not approve, had been Jews, or were decended from Jews. I think I even remember something about having to convert to Judaism first if you werent' Jewish already, before becoming a Christian--of course I could be wrong. So the first part of my question--okay, so it's two seperate questions and this is the first--and this has pretty much been asked already--if Jews believe in God, but not Jesus, then are they saved? I guess the answer would be no, but I think Rian, you said something about God showing himself in many ways, so even if someone had never heard of Jesus they would be saved if they had faith in God. Perhaps I misunderstood though, oh well. Anyway, I'd appreciate clarification, but I think I could pretty much answer my own question now from what I've learned--silly me!

2nd Question: Okay, so the bible is the Old Testament and the New Testament, neh? And there are a fe things in the Old that conflict with things in the New. (I'd go get a bible to check for quotes, but I think the closest I can come to is the Old Testament in Hebrew, which won't be too helpful to me. . .) So, how does that work? The only example I can think of is in the Old it says 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' But then Jesus says something along the lines of 'turn the other cheek.' That's clearly contradictory, I think! So, I just wanted to know some opinions on that. Would be much appreciated

Oh, and I think I'm going to have to find a bible somewhere, for reference now! And some other texts, too, I think.

[markedel]

Judaism most assuredly is not like Christianity. In fact a proper response would be far too long and I have to be up at 5:45 am to go on a short trip. So I'll be PCless for a while and unable to respond. But if you really must know why Judaism isn't like Christianity I'll do my best to throw my two cents sometime next week.

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Judaism most assuredly is not like Christianity. In fact a proper response would be far too long and I have to be up at 5:45 am to go on a short trip. So I'll be PCless for a while and unable to respond. But if you really must know why Judaism isn't like Christianity I'll do my best to throw my two cents sometime next week.

eek! well, i'd be interested in what you had to say, certainly, but. .. wow. I just read what I wrote and that is not at all what I meant! I can't believe I said that! No, what I meant is that they come from the same place, they're both Abrahamic religions, etc. Of course Christianity is very different! Sorry, I wasnt' thinking when I posted that. I was raised Jewish myself, I should know, neh? Alas. But do 'throw in your two cents,' I'd love to hear what you have to say. Silly, silly me. When my brain comes back from its coffee break I'll try to come up with a more sensical post. . .

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Are you two Orthodox, Conservative, or Liberal Jewish people?

[markedel]

Well I'll try a short stab at it...

Judaism (rabbinic Judaism-those nasty pharisees people used to rail against so much) is based around Jewish law (halacha) as outlined in the Talmud. There is no belief in redemption through faith. Judaism has universalistic tendancies in its law and philosohpy but is the religion of the Jews and thus no one else is required to become Jewish. Jews are "chosen" in some way (how is open to debate, like almost everything in Jewish law to some extant). The land of Israel is of central importance as well, in terms of the law, as well as this unique Jewish nationhood concept.

Finally some would argue that the Christian concept of Trinity is faintly (or really really idolatorous) to the point where some Jewish commentators have classified Christians as such (as opposed to say Muslims-this argument has never come up. Today if you asked most rabbis they'd be diplomatic and give christianity the monothestic benefit of the doubt-these things are rather open to interpertation). But still and yet I once asked a rabbi whether theologically speaking in one of those no win situations what would be better the current mosque or a church on the temple mount-and he said a mosque.

Another good comparison was by another rabbi. A little inflammatory-but here it goes: Christianity is all about the power of "love" (it's actually a hebrew concept that might be better rendered as loving-kindness, but translation is an imperfect business). As I understand it Jesus (and by extension God) loves you and is kind etc. If you love him back (via faith) you're saved. Sounds great. The problem is that love isn't tempered by "law" (it's a hebrew concept I can't translate any better-I'm doing my best here) and the result is the extremes of Christianity. (Islam has essentially similar problems-The need for people to love God is so intense that sometime you got to commit suicidal murder attacks to ensure it is fulfilled). Love of God/Faith trumps everything else. Judaism requires a mix of both-via jewish law which infuses the "law" with "love" to produce the ideal of Judaism-justice. Note that one can also veer to the other extreme all "law" all the time. The result in mild forms would be the West as we know it, at its worst you get Stalinism and Nazism. There are other ways of arguing the same point, but the implication is that the two religions are not philosophically attuned.

And yes-if you don't know Hebrew it's extremely difficult (no impossible) to really interpert the "Old Testament" (I can't common on the New). As an example my bible class last year examined three traditional Jewish interpertations of Genisis 1:1, one of which by the way can be used in a fascinating argument for biblical support of evolution. In fact every word of the bible can be looked at so many ways it's extremely difficult to use the pure text as a credible source for theological debate without resorting to some sort of commentary. Find any good Jewish bible and you'll discover the 3-10 standard commentaries around the text, and a few more in the back. And those are just the "popular" ones.

Thus, it's fairly easy to argue against "claims" found in the bible.

For example the "eye for an eye, tooth for tooth" verse is really about monetary compensation, not revenge, as shown by commentators (usually via Talmudic literature).

SO it was longer then I thought.

[markedel]

conservative by denomination. Not that religious in practice, not completely secular, relatively believing. I keep relatively kosher, but not the Sabbath-a mystery for Jewish demographers everywhere perhaps...

But now I really must go to sleep. Really

Happy mooting.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

When I think of Judaism, I always think of Orthodox Judaism.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf
Thank you, Rian! I think I'm beginning to understand now. . .your posts really help. *hands Rian a box of tissues in case she does cry*

Thanks, EG - I'm so glad to hear that they have helped. I did have just a teensy bit of a cry - I've had so many nice happy birthday messages from the 'Mooters here today, I got kinda emotional... and also, my other big prayer for about the last 3 years or so has been that God would help me to love people more like He does, and I think that He has really answered that one, but the down side of it is that you hurt more when you feel sad for someone, and I felt so frustrated about not being able to give answers to everyone's questions and help them as much as I would like to, because God has made such a tremendous difference in my life and I really want everyone to be able to experience that, and I think I'll end this sentence now, because I'm about to get an award for the most run-on sentence of the day, and I'd rather not get that award, and *bops self over head with her LoTR book* ah, ahem...ok.

Now for some relatively short responses -

(continued in next post, because my 'short response' ended up rather long...... big surprise, neh?)

[Rían]

by markedel
Christianity is all about the power of "love" (it's actually a hebrew concept that might be better rendered as loving-kindness, but translation is an imperfect business). As I understand it Jesus (and by extension God) loves you and is kind etc. If you love him back (via faith) you're saved. Sounds great. The problem is that love isn't tempered by "law" (it's a hebrew concept I can't translate any better-I'm doing my best here) and the result is the extremes of Christianity. (Islam has essentially similar problems-The need for people to love God is so intense that sometime you got to commit suicidal murder attacks to ensure it is fulfilled). Love of God/Faith trumps everything else. Judaism requires a mix of both-via jewish law which infuses the "law" with "love" to produce the ideal of Judaism-justice. Note that one can also veer to the other extreme all "law" all the time. The result in mild forms would be the West as we know it, at its worst you get Stalinism and Nazism. There are other ways of arguing the same point, but the implication is that the two religions are not philosophically attuned.

Not at all inflammatory, Markedel, because you presented it so considerately. And I politely and completely disagree Well, actually, I disagree as to the totally loving-kindness thing representing actual Christianity. I think what it represents is the kind of 1960's hippie version of Christianity, which was WAAAY out of balance, IMO. Here's some good verses from the NT re law:

Matthew 5:17,18 - spoken by Jesus
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

See? The Law is not removed, but fulfilled in Christ. However, He goes on to sum up the Law as follows, in what is commonly called the Golden Rule:

[Matthew 7:12
Therefore whatever you want others to do for you, do so for them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

and also here:

Matthew 22:35-40
And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. And a second is like it, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

In fact, Jesus calls us to go even beyond what the Law says - He talks about heart attitudes, not only actions -

Matthew 5:27,28
You have heart that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery'; but I say to you, that every one who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."

See how Jesus doesn't nullify the law, he actually requires MORE!

Of course, no one can live their life without breaking at least one of the 10 commandments at least once (except Jesus), and Jesus makes it even harder for us by saying heart attitudes count, too! But then the Bible goes on to say that the Law was to make us know that we sin and that NO ONE can be justified by the Law (Romans 3:20). And in the book of Hebrews, how the Jews used animal sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, and it was for a PICTURE of the perfect sacrifice that was to come - Jesus. And that Jesus was the only one who lived a perfect life, so he was the perfect sacrifice, and His sacrifice is "once for all" and doesn't need to be over and over, like the temple sacrifices. And finally,

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

I hope that helps, Markedel. I think that is a more accurate picture of what the NT says about the Law, but I totally understand where you got your picture from.

BTW, I love Psalm 119 and 19, and they talk a lot about the Law:

Psalm 19:7-11, 14
The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple,
The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever;
The judgements of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether.
They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold;
Sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb.
Moreover, by them Thy servant is warned;
In keeping them there is great reward.
....
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight,
O Lord, my rock and my redeemer.

*sheesh - "short response", my foot! Oh well, I guess I'm rather passionate about this whole God thing ... *

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Thank you, Markedel. This is all beginning to come back to me. . .all those years of Sunday school and going to temple seemed to have slipped from my mind of late. . .sad, that. Rather off-topic, but at my brother's Bar Mitzvah last spring, I realized it was the first time I'd been to services in two years!

Gwaimir--I am--was--gah! I dunno, anyway Reform Judaism.

And this is all for now. Will be back after I've slept

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian, not to be rude, but I think that the term Jew is not considered as polite as Jewish person, etc. Of course, I could be wrong about this: Markedel and EG; what is the politically correct term?

[Rían]

Thanks for pointing that out, Gwaimir - of course you're not rude
I was in my "Bible" mode, since I was looking up verses, and in both NT and OT the word "Jew" is used, and it's not disparaging, of course! What do you think, markedel and EG? Do you prefer "Jewish person"? Do you know what rabbis and more official people prefer? (out of curiosity and also a wish to convey my respect to them)

BTW, someone was talking about the various definitions what makes a person Jewish (and I think acc'd to bloodline, it goes thru the mother, is that correct?) and I thought of this verse:

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rían]

I've been out all morning, and while I was out, I was composing a stunningly clever response to a question that I thought Andúril had asked me. When I sat down to find the question so I could quote it and amaze the thread readers with the sheer brillance of my answer , I found that he DIDN'T ask the question I thought he had, and he was even talking to someone else! Oh well ... further proof that parts of my body (in this case, a few brain cells) have travelled on to heaven ahead of me ....

by Andúril

RÃ*an's stunningly clever response:

by RÃ*an
No!