Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

Since this thread is old, I am going to repost the part of the story that Nolendil had posted, and I am adding the rest on that takes us to the end of the story. I don't think it is much of a spoiler, but gives even those who do not have Morgoth's Ring, a chance to participate in the discussion. The part from the book I am posting is only relevant to the topic discussion.

From Morgoth's Ring, volume 10, The Histories of Middle-earth series.

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?'

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-Flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would still cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because we were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, we are not lordly in this, but pitiful [i.e., filled with pity, compassionate]. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár the Sharp-Flame loved thee. For thy sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindred, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the Northwind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the other by themselves -- until they learn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for death -- or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart rules, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For one year, one day, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel -- for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side and upheld thee. Then pity thou woudst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

continued...

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that last evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw thy face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair -- ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his flame. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the Sharp Flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourself scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

Darkness fell in the room. He took her hand in the light of the fire. "Wither go you?" she said.

"North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests ere Night comes."

"Will he be there, bright and tall, and the wind in his hair? Tell him. Tell him not to be reckless. Not to seek danger beyond need."

I will tell him," said Finrod. "But I might as well tell thee not to weep. He is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt."

But you are not for Arda. Whither you go may you find light. Await us there, my brother - and me."

[Valandil]

Wow. Stirring.

Is any hint of this in 'The Silmarillion'? It's been a while since I read it and I don't recall - but also they (Aegnor and Andreth) are apparently peripheral rather than central characters.

I see too where the line in your sig comes from, SGH!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Valandil
Wow. Stirring.

Is any hint of this in 'The Silmarillion'? It's been a while since I read it and I don't recall - but also they (Aegnor and Andreth) are apparently peripheral rather than central characters.

I see too where the line in your sig comes from, SGH!

No, there is nothing of this relationship in the Silmarillion. I believe I read, I think, in the Athrabeth, that it was a piece that Tolkien would have included in the Sil, had it not been published posthumously.

One thing that is hinted at in the Sil though, is the darkness that Men were fleeing from. Beor talks to Finrod vaguely about it. The Athrabeth discusses this at length, especially in the Tale of Adanel, explaining somewhat how the Gift of Iluvatar became tainted.

[Artanis]

Then Andreth stood up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

I wondered about Ambarato - Aegnor - why he left Andreth the way he did, without explanation, without talking to her. It seems somewhat selfish to me. His reasons for leaving her may have been reasonable enough from his point of view (though I do not agree with all the reasons Finrod gives), but I can see why she felt abandoned and, as Finrod said, scorned. I can understand her bitterness. Maybe if Aegnor had talked to her before he left her, she would have been more at peace with his decision.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Artanis
I wondered about Ambarato - Aegnor - why he left Andreth the way he did, without explanation, without talking to her. It seems somewhat selfish to me. His reasons for leaving her may have been reasonable enough from his point of view (though I do not agree with all the reasons Finrod gives), but I can see why she felt abandoned and, as Finrod said, scorned. I can understand her bitterness. Maybe if Aegnor had talked to her before he left her, she would have been more at peace with his decision.

Yes, but as Finrod says, Aegnor saw things from the viewpoint of an Elf, while Andreth saw things from the viewpoint of a Human. It's kind of like an 'east is east and west is west' sort of thing... never the twain shall meet. From his point of view, nothing needed to be said.

I think it's helpful to view the Elves as being as imperfect as we are in both making judgements and taking actions. Or nearly so, anyway... their years and insights may make them a little better, but they are still capable of 'guessing wrong'. Especially when dealing with Humans... whose viewpoint they may try to imagine, but cannot really 'connect' with.

This might have been better for Andreth (but then again, maybe not... who knows what response such a 'talk' may have triggered?) - but that may not have occured to Aegnor.

Down, dooby-doo, down-down,
Breakin'-up is hard... to-oo-ooo do!

Or - from the rest of the story, is this more like a 'break-up' or are we looking for a ' "let's just be friends" talk'? Those can be hard to bear as well.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
I wondered about Ambarato - Aegnor - why he left Andreth the way he did, without explanation, without talking to her. It seems somewhat selfish to me. His reasons for leaving her may have been reasonable enough from his point of view (though I do not agree with all the reasons Finrod gives), but I can see why she felt abandoned and, as Finrod said, scorned. I can understand her bitterness. Maybe if Aegnor had talked to her before he left her, she would have been more at peace with his decision.

Perhaps Aegnor felt that by seeing her again, it would have been too tempting and he would have followed his heart's desire. I wonder how many times they really saw one another before the last time. Finrod talks about their meeting in the Hills of Dorthonion and the last night by the water. The last night by the water sounds a bit romantic and sad and that that was the night of farewell.

[Valandil]

Anyway... makings of a GREAT tragic love story!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Or - from the rest of the story, is this more like a 'break-up' or are we looking for a ' "let's just be friends" talk'? Those can be hard to bear as well.

I think this is more of a "I love you, and you love me, but I reject this love."

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think this is more of a "I love you, and you love me, but I reject this love."

Hmmm... perhaps even HARDER for a human to bear than the old 'friends' thingee. I mean, to think that you and someone else both love each other, yet the other person doesn't want to take it any further, although there are no barriers you can see (like no current spouse or children in the picture)... that could be excruciating! All your life, the 'Why?' question would ring through your mind.

If someone lets you down and says that they don't love you... it hurts, but at least you can move on. It's harder to imagine ever 'moving on' if you knew that the person 'letting you down' loved you as you loved them.

Perhaps Aegnor erred in his decision (and I see you point too SGH - about not wanting to 'get caught up in the moment' if they would meet again) - but if so, his error came from an imperfect knowledge by Elves of Humans. Wonder if Elvenkind 'took notes' on the outcome and would know to let humans down with a little 'talk' after THIS little episode.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Wonder if Elvenkind 'took notes' on the outcome and would know to let humans down with a little 'talk' after THIS little episode.

That's what I mean about the "last night by the water," I think that might have been the little talk and the big let down.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Perhaps Aegnor felt that by seeing her again, it would have been too tempting and he would have followed his heart's desire. I wonder how many times they really saw one another before the last time. Finrod talks about their meeting in the Hills of Dorthonion and the last night by the water. The last night by the water sounds a bit romantic and sad and that that was the night of farewell.

Yes, how many times did they meet, were they close, did they talk to each other at all? By the way Finrod talks about this last night by the water, it seems to me that they did not really speak. If Aegnor declared this night as the farewell night, would not Andreth ask why? And then, would Aegnor leave her without answering? I think it's unlikely. I think HE knew it was their last night together, but SHE did not.

I also wonder how old (or young ) she was when they met. Andreth was about 48 years old when she talked to Finrod. The battle of Sudden Flame took place another 46 years later. So, from HER pov they could have spent many good years together, though they didn't know at the time how long the siege would last.

Originally posted by Valandil
Yes, but as Finrod says, Aegnor saw things from the viewpoint of an Elf, while Andreth saw things from the viewpoint of a Human. It's kind of like an 'east is east and west is west' sort of thing... never the twain shall meet.

But they do meet, and as Finrod said, Elves and Men were made so alike that they were capable of falling in love across the 'race barrier'. It is true that they both see things from their own point of view, but isn't it then the more need for communication?

Hmmm... perhaps even HARDER for a human to bear than the old 'friends' thingee. I mean, to think that you and someone else both love each other, yet the other person doesn't want to take it any further, although there are no barriers you can see (like no current spouse or children in the picture)... that could be excruciating! All your life, the 'Why?' question would ring through your mind.

Exactly. 'Why?' indeed. Andreth makes up her own explanation, and it is not the best one.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Yes, how many times did they meet, were they close, did they talk to each other at all? By the way Finrod talks about this last night by the water, it seems to me that they did not really speak. If Aegnor declared this night as the farewell night, would not Andreth ask why? And then, would Aegnor leave her without answering? I think it's unlikely. I think HE knew it was their last night together, but SHE did not.

Well, I think that's one of our problems. We have no way of really knowing how much time they spent together, or what was said between them, if anything at the end. It is our interpretations that end up defining the story, but the "last night by the water" just seems to come across as the night of farewell. How do we know if Andreth asked why, or if Aegnor answered. Just from my interpretation of it, he may not have given her what she considered as an adequate explanation before they parted, but took whatever he said as a rejection and a slight because she was a mortal. Remember through the whole conversation with Finrod how she keeps implying to him that the Elves seem to feel that mortals are lowly.

I also wonder how old (or young ) she was when they met. Andreth was about 48 years old when she talked to Finrod. The battle of Sudden Flame took place another 46 years later. So, from HER pov they could have spent many good years together, though they didn't know at the time how long the siege would last.

Well, there are some contradictions in the story, aren't there? We learn in the beginning that when Finrod goes to visit Andreth it is during the "Long Peace," but at the end when he says farewell, he says he is going to the "swords and the seige." He talks to her about the death of Fingolfin, but Fingolfin died just after the battle of "sudden Flame." Question: Do you get the impression that Aegnor and Andreth died shortly between one another, him being first?

But they do meet, and as Finrod said, Elves and Men were made so alike that they were capable of falling in love across the 'race barrier'. It is true that they both see things from their own point of view, but isn't it then the more need for communication?

Yes, but Finrod also in a way tells her that it is not in the cards for them, because it does not involve some "high purpose of doom."

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
...through the whole conversation with Finrod how she keeps implying to him that the Elves seem to feel that mortals are lowly.

Not to jump COMPLETELY on board with Olmer, but I think we see this in other places as well. One of the most surprising to me is what Arwen says as Aragorn is passing away. "...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the Gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." THIS after over 120 years of marriage to a man! Plus, it's early in the 4th Age, instead of late in the 1st - and from one who was a 'Half-Elven'! (and a great-granddaughter of both Beren and Tuor, if I'm keeping my genealogy straight ) (EDIT: or was Beren her great-great-grandfather?)

Originally posted by Artanis
I also wonder how old (or young ) she was when they met. Andreth was about 48 years old when she talked to Finrod. The battle of Sudden Flame took place another 46 years later. So, from HER pov they could have spent many good years together, though they didn't know at the time how long the siege would last.

On the other hand, as Finrod points out to her - the Elves do not marry or have children in times of war. (Were there exceptions to this while the Elves were in Beleriand? Or were the Elves who were born in those years born at times of relative peace?)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Or were the Elves who were born in those years born at times of relative peace?)

Most of these births probably would have occurred in the "Days of the Long Peace," which lasted nearly 200 years, beginning in FA-year 260, and ended with the breaking of the seige of Angband and the Dagor Bragollach in FA-year 455. (reference source-the Complete guide to Middle-earth)

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Well, I think that's one of our problems. We have no way of really knowing how much time they spent together, or what was said between them, if anything at the end. It is our interpretations that end up defining the story, but the "last night by the water" just seems to come across as the night of farewell. How do we know if Andreth asked why, or if Aegnor answered. Just from my interpretation of it, he may not have given her what she considered as an adequate explanation before they parted, but took whatever he said as a rejection and a slight because she was a mortal. Remember through the whole conversation with Finrod how she keeps implying to him that the Elves seem to feel that mortals are lowly.

But couldn't it as well be the bitterness that has made her emphasize the general haughtyness of the Elves? Bitterness sprung out of the rejection. She might not have had that attitude as a young maiden. But it is as you say, it depends on our own interpretations.

Well, there are some contradictions in the story, aren't there? We learn in the beginning that when Finrod goes to visit Andreth it is during the "Long Peace," but at the end when he says farewell, he says he is going to the "swords and the seige." He talks to her about the death of Fingolfin, but Fingolfin died just after the battle of "sudden Flame."

Yes it is contradictory. The "swords and the siege" thing could be interpreted as he is going north, and then returning to Nargothrond later. I have no explanation of the Fingolfin thing.

Question: Do you get the impression that Aegnor and Andreth died shortly between one another, him being first?

There is no impression at all to get from the Athrabeth. We don't know when Andreth died, but iirc in his commentary to the Athrabeth Tolkien suggests that she died shortly after the Battle of Sudden Flame, shortly after him, that is.

Yes, but Finrod also in a way tells her that it is not in the cards for them, because it does not involve some "high purpose of doom."

Which we know, or think, is true, looking from the outside. Someone said here that Finrod may have been the one to persuade Aegnor, or at least advised him to reject his love. Was that you SGH? I wonder, was he already Andreth's friend at that time? Did he assume that she would understand?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Valandil
Not to jump COMPLETELY on board with Olmer, but I think we see this in other places as well.

I agree, and Finrod also admits it in the Athrabeth. The Elves in general are far from being tolerant towards other races, not very willing to learn about them, or even to be concerned about them.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Which we know, or think, is true, looking from the outside. Someone said here that Finrod may have been the one to persuade Aegnor, or at least advised him to reject his love. Was that you SGH? I wonder, was he already Andreth's friend at that time? Did he assume that she would understand?

Yep, that was me.

He is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the enemy who long ago did thee this hurt."

Do you think that perhaps one of the reasons aegnor rejected her was that he felt more inclined to avenge her hurt from the enemy, rather than return her love and forsake the war?

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Do you think that perhaps one of the reasons aegnor rejected her was that he felt more inclined to avenge her hurt from the enemy, rather than return her love and forsake the war?

Trying in vain to recall enough history and geography of 1st Age Beleriand to put this in the right context in my own mind. Where exactly is Dorthonion and which House (of Edain) is Andreth from? I'm guessing it was the homeland of Beren and that she was a Beoran... are those right? If so, was she close kin to Beren, since there's mention of her loss (ED: and Beren's family and people suffered so heavily - or had that happened yet?)?

I was just THINKING Dorthonion was that (ED: mountainous) part of Beleriand north of Doriath (without checking a map - book at home) plus Beor's House was associated with Finrod, right? From the time they first met and Finrod sang and played his harp!

[Valandil]

A stray thought here: I've heard often that Tolkien wrote about 'Beren and Luthien' to celebrate his own love with his wife Edith (including his views of her - putting her 'on a pedestal' so to speak, in making her an Elven princess). Was this perhaps reflective of any other situation in Tolkien's life? Perhaps one of his friends who died in the trenches of WW1 - and didn't make it back to the girl he loved? In this case, he'd be giving greater honor to the friend, making him a great Elf...

Just a thought. Nothing to go on - but that he likely wrote these things in the 1920's (right?) and the losses of his friends would still be quite fresh in his mind, I suppose.