04-30-2003, 03:56 AM | #141 | |
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Galadriel and Fëanor
Why did Fëanor want a tress of Galadriel's hair? I don't think he meant to make something out of it, I think he just wanted to possess and cherish it, as a thing of immense beauty.
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Why did Galadriel deny Fëanor some of her hair? Because, as has been pointed out, a gift of hair is a very personal thing, and Galadriel did not have a friendly relationship with Fëanor. Now one may say this was a sad circumstance, but quite understandable from her point of view, since she clearly saw the darkness that had fallen upon him. Her fault was not the denial as such, but her lack of insight into herself and the rest of her people. If she had recognized the true sorce of evil and realised that the shadow had fallen upon all of the Ñoldor, then perhaps she would not have singled out Fëanor the way she did.
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04-30-2003, 01:10 PM | #142 |
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You know, Elves were very gifted in foresight and insight, especially those among the Exiles. Although Galadriel may not have perceived the shadow that had fallen upon all of the Noldor and upon herself, she must have sensed somehow that Feanor was the one that would be the cause of all the griefs of the Noldor.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
04-30-2003, 01:58 PM | #143 |
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Well, that would explain the hate and fear she felt. But why then did she take such an active part in the rebellion, which was led by Fëanor? If she thought he would cause the Ñoldor grief, it would be foolish to go along with his actions the way she did (I'm ruling out the late, unfinished version of Galadriel's part here).
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04-30-2003, 02:47 PM | #144 |
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Well there were two hosts, Feanor's and Fingolfin's. The Sil says that not all the Noldor were of a mind to follow Feanor, or to have him as king. What she wanted was to see the eastern land, and have a realm of her own, and the Rebellion was a chance to do that, but it still defied the Valar who had told them not to go.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
04-30-2003, 03:01 PM | #145 |
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(OT, but in reference to Mandos mentioned earlier - I added the bold for emphasis)
Also from MR - "The length of time that they dwelt in Waiting was partly at the will of Namo the Judge, lord of Mandos, partly at their own will"; and "...and their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos, and there waited, days or years, even a thousand, according to the will of Mandos and their deserts." And on-topic - Even in the Sil, Galadriel never seemed to want to rebel against the Valar - she just kept quiet, and "no oaths she swore" - "she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will." So it seems that she was just taking advantage of an opportunity to go to ME with some well-armed company. And it was ok for them to leave, at this point, as the messenger from Manwë said ("as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart") - it was just called "the folly of Fëanor". Also at this point, only Fëanor had been singled out and exiled, due to his oath. Tolkien's original intent seems to be that Galadriel was not rebelling, IMO, and he even rewrote her story later on to make it even more apparent that she was not rebelling, in the version when she leaves separately from Fëanor. Finarfin seems to be the only one who really acted gallantly in this situation, IMO - "Finarfin spoke softly, as was his wont, and sought to calm the Noldor, persuading them to pause and ponder ere deeds were done that could not be undone...."
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-30-2003 at 03:03 PM. |
04-30-2003, 04:50 PM | #146 | |||||
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I do not take into account the last version Tolkien wrote about Galadriel's actions in Aman. He did try to alter much of the mythology in his later days, some ideas he succeeded with, and some he abandoned. We don't know whether he would have abandoned the last version concerning Galadriel, if he had had the time to explore it.
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04-30-2003, 05:05 PM | #147 | |
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Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 04-30-2003 at 05:07 PM. |
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04-30-2003, 05:07 PM | #148 |
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Yes, that's what I'm referring to. I'll check the dates.
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04-30-2003, 05:26 PM | #149 |
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Letter #298 was written in 1967, Shibboleth in 1968 or later. The differenting story of Galadriel and Celeborn is not dated, but according to CRT it is (UT) "the last writing of my father's on the subject of Galadriel and Celeborn, and probably the last on Middle-Earth and Valinor, set down in the last month of his life". However, the story of Amroth being the son of G. and C. was an early idea, I believe.
And yes, Tolkien felt bound by the published LotR, he strove to get his ideas consistent with it, as in "The problem of Ros".
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04-30-2003, 05:33 PM | #150 |
AngAdan
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Yes, it must have been the Amroth bit in the UT chapter on Galadriel that I remebered as an earlier date.
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04-30-2003, 06:32 PM | #151 |
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*edited*
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 04-30-2003 at 06:34 PM. |
05-01-2003, 05:49 PM | #152 |
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I found him to be over-proud and definitely not a role model but he was one of the more interesting characters in the Sil. He does set the stage and help shapes alot of the events that occurs later in the book.
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05-03-2003, 10:32 AM | #153 | |
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Manwë is indeed wiser, because he can see more clearly the mind of Ilúvatar. So hate is not evil. Such evil deserves hate. That is what Fëanor did, he met the evil of Morgoth with hate. It seems that you have more in common with the person that you hate than I would ever have. Isn't that ironic and sad.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-03-2003, 10:52 AM | #154 | |
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It was Fate that both Bilbo and Frodo were prone to such pitty. In fact Frodo was talked into having pity for Gollum in the first place by Gandalf. Frodo had felt Bilbo should have killed Gollum. Then it was only later when he felt the power of the One Ring himself pulling at him and weakening and ever gaining more and more control over him that he truly understood the pain and suffering of pitiful Gollum. That stayed his hand then, and the words previously spoken to him by the wizard! It was Fate that caused Gollum to fall into the Crack of Doom! It was his own joy at being unioned once more with the one thing that he most longed for. And all of this comes together. That is FATE. Are you comparing the Silmarils with The One Ring? You are saying that the Silmarils caused the Kinslaying. That isn't true. The Silmarils were not evil, The One Ring was. The Silmarils placed no such influence over Fëanor that The Ring had over Gollum and eventually Frodo as well. The decision to murder the Teleri at Alqualondë was brought on by Fëanor's greed and pide, not some power of Melkor! [FLAME DELETED] This is unacceptable for this forum. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair Last edited by Ruinel : 05-03-2003 at 12:53 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 11:12 AM | #155 | ||
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Anyway, dispicable? Then you have interpreted Tolkien's texts in another way than I have done. I look at Gollum as a very sad and tragic creature... (Btw, couldn't find 'dispicable' in any wordlist but I assume it is bad ) Quote:
In fact, they were very much alike. Greed is a central point in Tolkien's texts, and both jewels made other people want them, they cast a kind of special "spell" on others. The difference is that the Ring was evil. The Silmarilli made others "evil". (badly formed sentence, I know...) I think Maedhros made a very good point here. In Tolkien's books, evil is not defeated by hate. It's defeated by pity.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 11:36 AM. |
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05-03-2003, 12:52 PM | #156 | |
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(BTW, I think it is 'despicable' )
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05-03-2003, 01:07 PM | #157 | |||
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05-03-2003, 03:08 PM | #158 | ||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 05-03-2003 at 03:36 PM. |
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05-03-2003, 03:20 PM | #159 | |||||||||
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From the Letters of JRRT # 153 Quote:
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The fact that the Quest was achieved is because of the pity of both Bilbo and Frodo. Because of that they were granted a grace, it was not the other way around. They had pity because they were good persons, not because they had a part to play in the Quest. It's sad that after reading it, you missed the most important point of the book. The evil of the world was defeated by people who used pity for their enemies. Good defeated evil. It was no mere luck.
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“What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance. |
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05-03-2003, 03:23 PM | #160 |
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I think Fëanor was a necessary evil to make the stories work. His story was the basis for nearly the entire Sil. But I refuse to put him up on a pedestal and to say that Fëanor was a great Elf only because he made the Silmarils and took a whole people away from Valinor and ignore the terrible things that his character did would not be right.
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