05-14-2003, 10:24 AM | #141 | |||
Enting
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-14-2003, 10:36 AM | #142 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You know, not nearly all animals act like your talking. There are hundreds of species of gregarious and extremely social animals. Also, premeditation and planning is simply not animal.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-14-2003, 10:45 AM | #143 | |
Enting
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-14-2003, 10:49 AM | #144 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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There is a big difference between hunting and stalking and what Gollum was doing. His tracking and hunting of the Hobbits, I think wouldn't be against that. But his deliberate planning, I disagree about.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-14-2003, 01:53 PM | #145 | |
Long lost mooter
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05-14-2003, 04:54 PM | #146 |
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A puppet is different from an animal. An animal might kill for food, but some, like jays, kill for territory. In these cases, the killing is instinctive; survival based. Humans also kill for these reasons, but they use petty "morals" to justify their killing. Under all the talk, however, it's still territory and food that governs human war and other forms of murder. Gollum, however, is not motivated by territory or by hunger. He has no will left and is just a shell of a being that is totally manipulated and enslaved by the Ring. He's not even like a drug addict because the drugs don't make them kill and steal, even though they would prefer that lame excuse. He's more like a religious fanatic that is full of justifications for his self-loathing and reprehensible stances, but he's really just a tool for another being's desires.
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05-14-2003, 05:49 PM | #147 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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As a side note, I'm curious as to how food and territory governed the atrocities committed by Saddam Hussein, or Elizabeth Balory?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-14-2003, 07:07 PM | #148 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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It IS a side note, which some intelligent educated sociologist or psychologist who specializes in megalomania will have to explain.
My point here is, Gollum is a follower, an adherent, a slave, a puppet, and not animalistic at all. My point is also that drugs do not make people kill and steal. If they choose to blame the drugs, that's because they are whiners. Religion, however, does tell people it is OK to kill and steal, and promises rewards if you obey, just like the Ring. p.s. That is why Gollum is tie with the rope. It symbolizes his enslavement to the will of the Ring. p.p.s. Sam is the real hero of the story.
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cya Last edited by Elfhelm : 05-15-2003 at 02:12 AM. |
05-15-2003, 09:56 AM | #149 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What religion are you referring to?
p. p. s. I'm beginning to agree. Though I still think Frodo is very much a hero.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-15-2003, 10:01 AM | #150 |
Fair Dinkum
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*sigh* Still can't decide between Sam and Frodo, as was shown by the Most Impressive Male character thread. Frodo was the Ringbearer, but Sam performed more notable deeds. Ah!
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05-15-2003, 11:26 AM | #151 | |
Enting
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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05-15-2003, 01:27 PM | #152 |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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I agree about the addictive behavior. But I don't think you're right about the nature of addiction. Although I agree about most of the rest of what you said, the primary point I know from experience is not true is this:
Drugs do not MAKE people steal and kill. Even in the deepest part of addiction, it is still a conscious decision. Only a coward, loser, whiner would blame an external force for their own choices. I will cite William S. Burroughs as an authority, maybe throw in Jim Carroll. Both will back me up on this. The fact is, Gollum is not beyond the point where he can choose. Like the suicide bombers, he has not totally lost himself. But the Ring is making him promises. In their case, it's 72 virgins or some such harps and wings nonses. In Sam's case it was the most beautiful garden. In Gollum's case, we don't know the exact promise, but certainly it is as glittering as the nonsense the religious leaders promise those who kill for them.
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cya |
05-16-2003, 10:50 AM | #153 |
Enting
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Sure it’s a conscious decision. But the mind is really just a machine. And anything that can corrupt it will make certain decisions much more likely. I have my doubts gollum really could have made ‘the right decisions’ in the face of such enormous evil corrupting power. I think it was like 1000 heroin addictions to him and it stripped away so much of his ‘human’ complexity and left that ‘flee or kill or be killed’ mind set. Even smokers have a really hard time resisting the urge to do something they know will kill THEM eventually. And the ring was way beyond any normal drug. I don’t think he had a chance.
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Its a common occurance. We all come to terms with it at some time or another. That beautiful feeling of being left behind. With the Golden promise touching anothers horizion. Being left sitting still and waiting for nothing. Unable to move until it comes. |
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