11-17-2002, 01:07 AM | #141 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I don't agree! I do blame some entertainment. Things have just gotten worse each decade, sex sells and some in the entertainment business cram it down young peoples throats, not caring what effect it has. Young people are very impresionable, and are easy prey to the "if they are doing it, maybe I should be be doing it" mindset. Many don't have excellent family communication situations! (I know I sure didn't!) It also makes our society look bad! Just my opinion!
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 11-17-2002 at 01:38 AM. |
11-17-2002, 01:08 AM | #142 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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can i shoot myself with a .22?
(this was an edit.)
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Last edited by LuthienTinuviel : 11-27-2002 at 11:48 PM. |
11-17-2002, 01:31 AM | #143 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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I certainly understand what you are saying LT. But situations can change, It's hard to acurately predict what will be. You just never know.
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11-17-2002, 01:32 AM | #144 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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If the majority of people are upset with something - they won't watch the shows. People have a free choice in what to watch - I agree that much of it shouldn't be seen by children. I also agree that it's difficult for single parents or even two parents to control or know what their child is doing 24/7. It is still the parents responsibility though. Not schools, not TV, not music, not sports stars, but parents. It's society that has made the Bachelor and Survivor such big hits. The entertainment industy isn't making people watch these shows - people are voluntarily watching them - even though all they are about is back stabbing, lying and using people. When parents find this stuff funny and entertaining - they raise their children to find this stuff funny and entertaining.
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11-17-2002, 01:33 AM | #145 |
protector of orphaned rabbits
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nothing is perfect.
like the entire world. (edit)
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Last edited by LuthienTinuviel : 11-27-2002 at 11:52 PM. |
11-17-2002, 01:36 AM | #146 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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who died and made you god, that you may choose who lives and who dies? Ideally, each child would be born into a loving, two-parent, wealthy family, but that is not the case. Would you line up all potential mothers, whip out their charts, and on a case-by-case basis send them either to the right (abortion clinic), or to the left (women's hospital)? Some of the greatest men and women civilization has ever known overcame immense odds, and accomplished great things. "Do not be so quick to deal out death and judgement, LuthienTinuviel."
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11-17-2002, 01:47 AM | #147 | |
Elf Lord
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Precisely. I do understand your argument, Luthien-Tinuviel, but we simply don't have the right to make that sort of decision for a child.
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The only way you can get away with abortion is to dehumanize the child by deciding that they aren't a child yet. Either that, or you have to be a massively inflated ego and think that you're God. If someone is in pain or will be, that doesn't give someone else the right to murder them, "For their own good." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-17-2002 at 01:51 AM. |
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11-17-2002, 02:00 AM | #148 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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11-17-2002, 02:06 AM | #149 | |
Empress of the Writewraiths
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Actually, some centers do help the woman and her child after the child's birth. But now that you will mention it, I will find a local center that does this and find out if I can do volunteer work there in some capacity. Thank you for effectively challenging me to do this. Most anti-abortionists do not go out and bomb abortion clinics, though obviously there are some who do. If these bombers were careful to make sure there are no people in the clinics when they strike -- it would still wrong, but at least they could say they were trying to respect the sanctity of life. Bombing abortion clinics with people in them is evil and there is no excuse for doing it. I am ashamed that people who profess to believe in the sanctity of life believe they should destroy more lives. I'd say a girl of 14 shouldn't become pregnant in the first place, but if she does, then yes, she should have the baby. I believe that the fetus is a living person, not to be deprived of life for the reason that living longer might not be "best" for him/her. Of course, I realize that the 14 year old girl would be alone and scared, and I would hardly be surprised by her getting an abortion, especially if no one DID offer to help her and her child after the baby's birth. If I knew about a situation where a young mother needed support, and I could help, I would, at least if the mother would allow me to do so. I'm not sure all teenage mothers would even accept help in supporting their children. Doesn't it seem somewhat selfish to kill your child because you don't want to have to say goodbye later on? Some women do "miss something they never had." And if they change their minds after the abortion and wish they'd kept the baby, there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. |
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11-17-2002, 02:15 AM | #150 |
Elf Lord
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I'm sorry, jerseydevil, Luthien-Tinuviel, but I just can't understand how someone could do an abortion, while knowing that the child is alive and is a child. If you think of it simply as organic tissue that doesn't have life yet, then you can justify your destroying it to protect another life (The mother). If, however, you know that this is a living person, I don't understand how you can condone murder. You can't murder someone because you think they'll probably be miserable later on.
Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-17-2002 at 02:16 AM. |
11-17-2002, 02:20 AM | #151 | |
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-17-2002 at 02:21 AM. |
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11-17-2002, 02:30 AM | #152 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-17-2002 at 02:31 AM. |
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11-17-2002, 02:37 AM | #153 | |||
Elf Lord
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You cannot honestly say that a 14 year old girl should have a baby, I'm not going to argue. But, it is possible for both the baby AND the mother to live a good life, without adoption. My family is living proof of this. No, it is not easy to say good bye, and I recently discovered that my mother is completely against adoption. Quote:
Then why do so many girls who have abortions feel guilty or upset after they've done so? It is possible to miss something you never had. And they DID have the baby, for some period of time. About my comment earlier in the thread...eahh...I do'nt know where that came from.
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11-17-2002, 02:37 AM | #154 |
Elf Lord
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Aha, so you do dehumanize it (Sorry for coining that term, I know it sounds awful). However, you are still making decisions for an individual (Or potential future individual) that you have no right to make.
If you're a wealthy and influential person in a bank, and I was planning to enter into the bank, you wouldn't have the right to cut me off from entering it simply because you thought I'd be making life miserable for myself and everyone else. I'm not in the bank yet, so cutting me off from entering doesn't harm me so much. Nevertheless, it still isn't a decision that you have any right to make. How do you know that I won't make friends with everyone around me and rise to a prominent position? And even if I didn't and you're right about the misery that would be caused- how do you know that it won't end up going well. Twenty or fifteen years after I enter I might be very thankful that I did. You don't have the right to stop me from success simply because you don't think it'll work, or because it damages your own interests. Doing that is selfish and presumptuous. We're talking about a human life though; I was simply talking about a business position. That's a very small example to demonstrate a very big point. Thirty years from now, the individual who was aborted could have been having a very happy in life and a blessing to all around him/her. Things might have started out stormy or painful, but in no individual's life is there nothing at all but darkness (I think), and if there are any such situations, they are few and far between, and we have no way of knowing for certain whether this would be one of them. |
11-17-2002, 02:41 AM | #155 |
Head Hollara
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Hmm... very interesting thoughts here. Now here's a good question to ask yourselves:
What would I do? If I were a wedded or unwed expecting mother, I could either focus on my own goals, decide the times not right (etc., etc.) and decide to abort the child or instead accept responsibility for my actions and have the child and either give him up for adoption or give him the best life I can offer. I like to think I'd choose the latter. If I were a wedded or unwed expecting mother from causes of rape, I could either abort the child, knowing full well that it was not because of my own choices and I have no responsibility for the actions of another person to me. I'd realize the child will never know the father, because I'd never known the father. How could I possibly raise him properly in this environment (etc., etc.)? On the other hand, I could carry the child as a normal one, give him up for adoption or raise him as best as I can and possibly tell him the truth when he's old enough. This choice is more difficult... and this hypothetical situation has altered my opinion... once again, I like to think that I'd choose the latter. I admit, it's the more difficult route, but the one I could live with more comfortably.
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11-17-2002, 02:43 AM | #156 | |
Elf Lord
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11-17-2002, 02:50 AM | #157 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I have never said kill a baby because it may not have a good life - so I don't even know how I got dragged into this. I feel it's the mother's choice though.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-17-2002 at 02:52 AM. |
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11-17-2002, 02:53 AM | #158 |
Elf Lord
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Before someone brings up the "teenagers aren't fit for motherhood" or "they have to have support, and a lot of them won't get it":
My mother was a teenage mother, with no support from her parents (I believe my father's parents helped though). She had my sister, and then me six years later. When I was two she went back to school and eventually became an RN. My parents were married, but they got divorced when I was young. Right now my mother works at the WIC center (Women Infant Children) as the 'head' nurse and we live in an average middle-class home. She's not perfect, no one is. My sister turned out just fine, she is now twenty-two and has a job at a law firm. I'm sure her case is fairly rare but it proves that it is NOT impossible to lead a happy life if you have children young. True, she hasn't gotten to do everything she wanted when she was young, but who does?
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11-17-2002, 03:12 AM | #159 | |
Elf Lord
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I feel that the parent(s) of a child should make most of the major decisions for that child. Whether they live or die is where I draw the line, though. The argument is basically the same as whether a mother should have a child at all. Now a woman has the ability to choose when, where and how she is going to bear her child. This doesn't make her obligated to bear a child, simply because she can. Once the child is conceived, you're saying that it still (Since the child isn't alive) is a decision that the mother should make, the same as in the beginning, as to whether or not she's going to have a child. On the surface, this ability of the mother to choose makes sense. But now we come to a difference in the situations. In one case, we're simply taking no action to make a child alive. In the other, we're taking action to prevent a child from being alive. What the intentions or reasons of the mother are is immaterial, for now we get to a moral issue, whether or not the mother has the right to choose. Earlier she did, but now the thing has happened, whether she wanted it to or not, and she'll be taking a step to prevent a life from being lived. And this is where I draw the line, that the mother in this case doesn't have the right to choose what's best for herself and her child. What's best for herself is selfish (However good her reasons are, we're still talking about a human life here), and what's best for the child she can't know, for she isn't God. |
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11-17-2002, 07:47 AM | #160 | |
Elf Lord
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If you accept the idea that it is because “it” has a soul, then, since you can’t prove the existence of the soul, one position is as morally acceptable as the other. It becomes a matter of your belief, not of facts, that define your position. If it is because you believe it has the potentiality to be human, then still the concept is debatable. Future Rights are not widely acceptable concept, and besides, one can argue that the conflicting rights of a existing human being and the rights of something that may become one are not of the same degree (assuming that one accepts, for the moment, the concept of Future Rights).
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