10-30-2004, 10:04 AM | #141 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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Although I think you bring up a very interesting although somewhat different topic of exactly what are human rights and how do they come about?
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10-30-2004, 10:21 AM | #142 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-30-2004, 10:42 AM | #143 |
Elf Lord
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Nothing ventured, nothing gained. To plead animality is to say that the rational component is incapable of functioning. I will not settle for that.
Nor will you, practically. So if we contracept the water supply and require licences for reproduction and institute mandatory abortion for failures, do you have any problems with that? After all, if humans are merely animals, why shouldn't the standard hierarchal principles be applied? The alpha males will make the decisions and enforce them through brute strength? Ever read ANIMAL FARM?
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10-30-2004, 01:03 PM | #144 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-30-2004, 02:00 PM | #145 |
Long lost mooter
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IR, I noticed you used the term "grown woman." What are your (or anyone else's) views on teenagers having abortions? Should they
a) be allowed to have abortions no matter what b) be allowed to have an abortion as long as one of her parents is notified c) be allowed to have an abortion, but only with parental permission d) not be allowed to have an abortion at all unless it is an extreme circumastance (incest, threat to life, that kind of thing) and feel free to elaborate on your answer. Thanks for answering my earlier question, BTW, Hasty Ent and Earniel! IR (or anyone else who wants to answer), do you have an opinion about third trimester or partial-birth abortions? I mean either in normal OR extreme circumstances. |
10-30-2004, 03:01 PM | #146 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think that teenagers should have the same right as grown women. Although I'm pro-life I'm against making abortion illegal as it will result in alot of back street abortions. It should be that person's own choice and no one else (bar the father I think) should be able to influence the choice. They can say what they think but I think it should be between the father and the mother.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-30-2004, 06:05 PM | #147 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Your answer to my question is basically: I wouldn't kill you for almost any reason. I should have the right to choose to, though. That's what I'm getting anyway. Correct me if my impression is wrong.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-30-2004 at 06:06 PM. |
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10-30-2004, 07:04 PM | #148 | |||||||
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Definitely it comes down to when something becomes truly human. Science can be influential in that reasoning. I tend to agree with Valandil, that if there is doubt, it is wisest to be cautious. Else we could be responsible for mass murder on an astounding scale. To me, mass murder has a great meaning. Quote:
Whether or not the government should be able to dictate things to people like when they must trim their nails is up for grabs. But I think it's clear the government should have the right to order people to do things-even to risk their lives-when the life of another individual is involved. Quote:
Are you saying that because the fetus doesn't have any rights, we shouldn't give it any rights? Or because right now the woman has rights that are greater then that of the fetus, we shouldn't give the fetus equal rights with the woman? Your argument doesn't make any sense to me, IR. If we followed your reasoning, the slaves never would have been given liberty. They didn't have rights, and their desired rights were infringing on the then rights of the slave owners, so the slaves shouldn't have been given rights. (Shakes head) The argument just doesn't make any sense. Quote:
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I don't see most of the poor in the world today arguing that they're so badly off that they should have been killed at birth, though. I think the poor of today (in general) prefer to be poor and alive then to be dead without ever knowing life. It's my belief only, perhaps, but it seems obvious from the number of poor that are still alive. Abortion does make them worse off. I think HLGStrider argued appropriately earlier on, that if abortion is better for the child, then those poor that actually have children and raise them are the ones that are doing wrong. You justify yourself in killing as many poor people as you want (leaving the scientific point of view aside, as it is rather a separate issue). (EDIT: Not speaking of you personally, here) Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 10-30-2004 at 07:55 PM. |
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10-30-2004, 08:24 PM | #149 | ||
Quasi Evil
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I know if any teenage girl I knew came to me and asked me to help them get an abortion I would have a long serious talk with them but I would decide based on what I know about them as a person. And what I knew about their home situation and their life situation. And if I felt that any other alternative would be worse then I would help them. Quote:
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10-30-2004, 09:16 PM | #150 | |||||||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-30-2004, 09:23 PM | #151 | ||||||
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"The Ultimate Scientific Answer"? There's plenty of evidence out there. People should make their own decisions based upon it and the other forms of reasoning available to them as to whether they're going to support- life or choice. Whenever anyone votes on anything they're imposing their beliefs on other people. You're basically saying here, "since no one knows for sure, if anyone disagrees with me, shut-up now!" The argument is rather confusing. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-30-2004, 09:23 PM | #152 | |
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I admit there would be a rise in back street abortions (though IMO only slightly). Either way, the number of abortions would not stay the same--not everyone who would've gotten a legal abortion (back when they were legal) is now going to run to a doctor to get a back street abortion. The number of abortions would definitely go down to some degree. Hmm...Since I believe abortion is wrong anyway, why be so concerned about back street abortions? I can't stop women from doing it illegally- they are making a decision that is detrimental to themselves (since back-street abortions are more dangerous and unsafe). Wait a sec--I don't think I made any sense there. I believe I'm trying to say oh well if they get around the law, let them hurt themselves as a result.
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10-30-2004, 09:33 PM | #153 | |
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So you give no dignity to life in itself?
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10-30-2004, 09:44 PM | #154 | |
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10-30-2004, 09:50 PM | #155 | |
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Life separate? It is separate but it involves the body. Body held hostage? I think yes, I am saying that. "Right to die"? They shouldn't be allowed to. All this seems to be based on the idea that pain and suffering are "bad," and people have a "right" to be happy (or nonexistent). I don't believe that pain and suffering is all bad, nor that we have a right to be happy.
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10-30-2004, 10:18 PM | #156 |
Quasi Evil
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well if we cant even make choices about our own lives then who exactly are we living our lives for?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-31-2004, 01:56 AM | #157 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 02:07 AM | #158 | |
Elf Lord
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You know Insidious, I think our debate is about finished. Almost everything comes down to the question: "When does the organism growing in the womb qualify as a human being?" This question isn't the main point to everyone, and then it's possible to take a high moral ground in arguing. That's impossible to do with you, Insidious. I said in my first posts that there was only one pro-choice stance that I could respect, and that was the one that said the fetus doesn't qualify as a human being. So ethics and morality are rescinded as a strong part of the equation. Hence most of what's left is scientific discussion. Continuously, the discussion revolves back to that point. Since I can't effectively argue on it, there's no point in sitting here shooting my mouth off . Thanks for taking the time to respond to my last two posts, in detail, as you always do . I respect your stance on the subject, and your arguments seem to me in general (adding the "in general", in case there's something way back here that I find myself accidentally approving, which I don't wish to ) on this to be highly rational. Looking forward to more debates on other subjects . I'll continue posting here some, probably, just whenever there's something I have to mention. But I think my debate with you at least Insidious, is pretty much closed. Apologies if I sound pompous in this post.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-31-2004, 07:42 AM | #159 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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I think that if the fetus doesn't qualify as a human being then it is almost as bad to 'kill' them. It takes away their chance to live and to be a human being. Surely that is almost if not as bad as killing a young child.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-31-2004, 07:50 AM | #160 | |||
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I thought the debate hinged solely on that until I read Telcontar's post. Now I think not only would we need to determine when the sperm and the egg together (zygote IIRC) turns into a human being, but also if it is okay to end its chance to become a human being - even if we decide that for some of the time in the womb it is not a human being. Does that make sense? I can clarify (or go back to lurking, which I will do after... I'm a wannabe lurker in this thread anyway. I blame you intelligent posters! )
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