08-17-2004, 09:51 AM | #141 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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there seems to be a kind of absolutism in the above statement and many others that is exactly what i was trying to address... the idea that somehow you're governed completely by free will or completely by instinct, with no space in between if for the moment we accept the basic concepts (which is the best we can do, though the concepts may be imperfect) that instinct is an ingrained action that you have little control over, while free will is the ability to act according to thought processes only, and then look at the real world... many examples have already been given of animal actions that seem to be at least in part due to thought processes, and maybe even a certain amount of trial and error and deduction how about some human actions that seem to defy thought processes? i mentioned the fact earlier that mothers (and fathers) always protect their offspring... not only that, but there is an almost universal tendency for this to happen even if that offspring has done something truely terrible to society... one would think that if we were governed totally by free will, logic would allow someone to see this situation more objectively, but time and time again humans do not... this is just one of many examples... there are many other involving love or anger where human reactions become extremely predictable (almost instinctual), even among the most intelligent i see this as a kind of reversion to what we call instinct... so if humans still have some instinct intermixed with their 'free will', whats to say that some animals do not have a bit of 'free will' mixed in with their instinct? Quote:
i however was not denying the concepts of morals, free will and instinct... i was saying that maybe the division between these concepts is not as absolute as some of us like to think
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08-17-2004, 10:25 AM | #142 | |
Mootis per forum
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it seems you choose to believe in remote possibilities...
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08-17-2004, 11:32 AM | #143 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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That was just a question to ponder FM ...not "evidence" Evidence is the fossil record, the age of the earth and all the other things discussed in depth in the "Should evolution br taught in schools" and "the evidence for creationisn" thread. I would run and hide if that remote possibilty could be true! "payback" would be gruesome!
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08-17-2004, 12:23 PM | #144 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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interesting question lizra... kind of what i was thinking earlier when i spoke of early development of mankind... if you believe we evolved from animals (and i know all to well that not all of us do ), at what point did we become this 'special' free-will oriented animal? some might attribute it to tools, but we see animals that use these... other's speech or some other form of complex communication... but many scientists believe that homo sapiens had the ability to speak long before they actually did... where did we cross the line... or is there even a line at all?
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08-17-2004, 12:32 PM | #145 |
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Saying that we are set above animals because they cant talk or "build garages" and whatnot does seem rascist reminiscent.
Remember when the Europeans thought that they were "set above" Africas, Native Americans, and other indigenous peoples? I mean, the Europeans sure had a ton more technology and were much more developed at the time, so they had to be set above them right? Those native peoples didn't seem to have any civilized language to the ears of the Europeans and they saw their huts and stone tools as inferior to their paved woods, carriages, glasses, wooden houses, brick houses, metal tools, etc. Point is: They weren't inferior than Europeans and they certainly were not set above them. They just happened to be a little more advanced technology speaking at that time in history. Of course, these peoples were also Human. But it is a similar thing with animals. Just something to ponder, i'm all for eating animals
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08-17-2004, 02:14 PM | #146 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Oh my dear Rian. I haven’t seen a tantrum like this from you in a while. I feared we have all been growing a bit too soft and cuddly here for that. Good to see we can still inspire some passion even if its highly misguided.
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But when we get into your ideas on creationism and such which you insist are ALL based on evidence *snort * you seem so out of touch to me that its almost impossible for me to see you as anything else but in major denial (since you have already pegged me with this term ) because of your massive need to cling to your particular Christian foundation about the world and yourself. Understandable of course but don’t expect me to humor you because of it. Quote:
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EDIT: and now that I think about it, you are in fact a master of this very concept. I see you do it all the time with evolutionary terms and concepts that you twist and bend to your own bidding for the very reason of making them look ridiculous. and no matter how many times someone patiently corrects you you continue using the same language. meanwhile ALL i did was equate "serving" with "slavery". not much of a stretch really if you think about it. you were created by god to serve me no matter what. you were created by god to be my slave no matter what. pretty similar.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-17-2004 at 02:21 PM. |
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08-17-2004, 02:30 PM | #147 | ||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-17-2004, 02:45 PM | #148 | |||
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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08-17-2004, 02:55 PM | #149 | |
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08-17-2004, 03:09 PM | #150 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-17-2004, 03:36 PM | #151 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think IRex puts it well: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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08-17-2004, 03:41 PM | #152 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-18-2004 at 12:42 PM. |
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08-17-2004, 04:14 PM | #153 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Again, you're speaking as if you're the final authority on everything. "even if its highly misguided"?! Come on, IRex, stop insulting me. Who made YOU the authority on everything? No one but you, and I don't accept it. Why can YOU have an opinion and state it like it's a fact, and not let me state an opinion as an opinion without insulting me and flat out telling me I'm wrong? What happened to the open-minded agnostic? Let's have a passionate discussion - I like those - but please keep it considerate. Your posts are characterized by making statements like that, like you're the final authority and know everything, and frankly, I can only take it so long before I have to comment strongly on it, mainly because it might mislead other people into thinking you actually know facts when you don't (and I don't know facts in these areas, either - no one does, because they are in the realm of conjecture and not science). It gets annoying and boring to continually quote your sentences and say "of course, that's only your OPINION." I think it would be much nicer of you, and more considerate of others, and more truthful, if you would try to rephrase your posts. Now I have posted with you for quite awhile now, and I know you're quite a nice guy, and I think this is mainly just your style, but I think I need to tell you that it's a pretty insulting style to anyone who has a different opinion from you. I'm able to overlook it quite often, because I know your kind heart behind the style, but it was just getting to the point here where I really needed to make a comment, IMO. I mean, speaking like you KNOW what an imaginary alien would conclude about humanity, and everyone else is wrong? I think it would have been much better to say "IMO, I think an alien would conclude ..." or "I think an alien would conclude ... " or something like that. That language, IMO, shows a consideration to other people and their opinions. Quote:
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And the queen of England thing was to point out that if it is a FACT that someone is a queen of England, then it is not narcisisstic of her to believe in a fact. Do you see what I mean? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 08-17-2004 at 04:18 PM. |
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08-17-2004, 04:23 PM | #154 | |
the Shrike
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I KNOW that you did a unit on evolution, so you should know better! Humans did NOT descend from apes, they share a common ancestor with them. *gives tristan a wedgie*
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08-17-2004, 04:28 PM | #155 | |
the Shrike
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Numbers are a construct defined by humans to make sense of the world, that is true, but at the heart of it, maths is one of the most absolute languages we have.
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08-17-2004, 04:36 PM | #156 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Nice wedgie!
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08-17-2004, 04:38 PM | #157 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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on the IMO business, i know you like to use it R*an, but i think it kind of goes without saying... i don't qualify my views much, if at all, either any answers to my "good question?" R*an
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08-17-2004, 04:48 PM | #158 | ||||||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-17-2004, 05:28 PM | #159 |
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You didn't see my bio grades I miss-spoke
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
08-17-2004, 05:55 PM | #160 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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