12-20-2006, 01:48 PM | #141 |
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Got a link for that (transcript or text report ideally)?
Am trying to resist the temptation to speculate... |
12-20-2006, 01:49 PM | #142 |
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Well I was listening to it on the radio....I'm not sure there'd be a transcript of it this fast, would there?
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01-17-2007, 05:02 PM | #143 |
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If there is something stupider than the democrats - and some Republicans - trying to look independent and fresh by booing Bush's troop level increase, I have yet to see it.
It's one thing to be a Bush henchman, it's quite another to try and look opinionated and original when everyone already knows that 2008 is looming on the horizon, quite close. Is there really a reason that the troop reinforcements won't do at least some more good for Bahgdad? And with the new "green light" for troops to search out Sadr city, and have more leeway, is there a good reason why at least something different and perhaps good -and dare we hope, successful- might happen? And with all these new leeways, and supposed cooperation from Maliki, why exactly are troop reinforcements a bad thing? It's almost like the Democrats WANT to lose. Sure they don't support the war, don't believe in it, but while we're in there, do they HAVE to crack the troop helmets?
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06-08-2007, 12:23 PM | #144 | ||
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I'm not planning to debate the issue this time. I think we've already all been over the relevant points in a lot of detail, which was good. But I thought I'd bring this up anyway, as it's new and strongly related.
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06-08-2007, 01:08 PM | #145 | |
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06-08-2007, 01:17 PM | #146 |
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The new american "War Czar" Bush just appointed was recently quoted as saying the troop surge is likely to be useless if the Iraqis arent in a position to keep it that way which it clearly seems they arent. So whats the point again? Stuck in Iraq holding the dyke together? What was that about Vietnam?
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06-08-2007, 02:17 PM | #147 | |
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On the other hand, Insidious, according to the Time, in the Anbar province "the level of violence has plummeted in recent weeks. An alliance of U.S. troops and local tribes has been very effective in moving against the al-Qaeda foreign fighters." The article goes on to talk about the difficulties that the largely Shi'ite government is having getting along with the Sunnis, but the victory in the Anbar province is a very significant one. Anbar has been a bastion of Al-Qaeda and among the most violent parts of Iraq, until now.
And about the readiness of the Iraqis to fight and their ability to win, it's worth noting about this success in Anbar that it is largely the result of "sheiks stepping up and opposing AQI [al-Qaeda in Iraq] and volunteering their young men to serve in the police and army units there." The implications of this victory may have wider consequences too. Quote:
Of course there are places in Iraq where this is not holding true, and Baghdad in particular is still a big problem. But Anbar has been one of the most central places where Al-Qaeda held power, so Al-Qaeda's defeat there is important.
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06-09-2007, 01:33 AM | #148 |
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Apparently this strategy extends beyond Anbar into the Diyala province as well. There, an alliance of nationalist insurgents is now helping the US to destroy Al'Qaeda. Afterward we might end up fighting them again, depending on how the diplomacy is handled and on whether or not our new insurgent allies will accept a compromise.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/...raq/index.html
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06-20-2007, 03:29 AM | #149 | |
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Yet again, I am reminded of the scene in 1984 when the Enemy morphs from Eurasia to Eastasia in an instant. You get the Doublethink Gold Medal for this one, Lief. |
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06-20-2007, 04:38 AM | #150 |
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You're confusing me. You think it isn't helpful that we've gotten insurgent groups to work with our people and the Iraqis against other insurgents?
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06-20-2007, 04:56 AM | #151 |
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Yes. If you don't have a problem with it, well I'm glad for you, but fear for your soul.
Nobody cares what these groups represent or atrocities they have committed, as long as they are opposed to groups associated with Al-Qaida and/or Iran. i.e. political expediency trumps principles yet again. So we are shaping up nicely for a Sunni/US alliance against the Shia/Iran factions. It's exactly what was predicted by people like me back in 2001/2 when an Iraq war was touted. I suppose the fact that the Iraq Study Group findings are being given more house room by a consistently clueless and desperate Bush administration is some cause for optimism. However, it looks pretty bleak. |
06-20-2007, 01:06 PM | #152 | |||
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And of course there is bad news too, terrorists blowing up civilians and troops, and then there also are successful round-ups and killings of insurgents that rarely make the news. It's certainly not over, and I'm not trying to say it is. I'm just pointing out it's not all bad .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-20-2007 at 01:08 PM. |
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06-20-2007, 04:10 PM | #153 |
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Lief, this is the exact same logic that had us supporting Saddam throughout the 80s. And it is the exactly why people around the world have a rather hard time believing that the US intervention in Iraq is anything at all to do with principles such as freedom and democracy. However, I applaud your honesty, that it is driven by political expediency - opposing Iran - not by principle.
I should point out that Germany attacked Russia before the US entered the war. It is good that in some areas, such as Anbar, things are improving. i.e. only a few attacks per week. But it's a long road. In Afghanistan (remember that? the one where we tooled up the locals?), they are talking about our troops being involved for many years yet. Iraq is an even bigger mess unfortunately. Last edited by The Gaffer : 06-20-2007 at 04:12 PM. |
06-20-2007, 06:56 PM | #154 | |||||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-20-2007 at 07:02 PM. Reason: No reason. |
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12-15-2007, 02:13 PM | #155 |
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YES! Iraq's oil production has now exceeded the levels it was at before the US's invasion of Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7144774.stm
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12-17-2007, 04:42 AM | #156 |
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Hooray! 4m refugees, 0.5-1m deaths and we're back where we started.
Go us! |
12-17-2007, 07:41 AM | #157 |
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Lief, is that even a good thing? Years of war, a messed up country, death all around and the cradle of civilisation robbed and sold over the internet. And a higher oil outpour is all we've got to show for? That's rather pathetic.
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12-17-2007, 02:07 PM | #158 |
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Yeah but at least the oil barrons are happy.
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12-17-2007, 04:20 PM | #159 | |||
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I will just mention though, Gaffer, that those casualty statistics you gave are very debatable. Under 100,000 civilian casualties have been documented (iraqbodycount.org). Of course, there have certainly been many undocumented deaths, but the suggested tallies of available lists differ strongly in their estimates. I don't yet have a view, myself, on what the casualty number in Iraq probably is. Quote:
Even if ALL the money from the oil went into the hands of "oil barons," the increased production would be an improvement for Iraq, for in the past, Iraq was too unstable for this kind of production. Even if it ALL went away to corruption, the fact that the oil can be produced at all shows that Iraq is now more stable than it used to be, which is a good thing. I do believe that the increased productivity is helping the common people in Iraq, though, even if a significant amount of oil revenue is lost to corruption.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 12-17-2007 at 04:29 PM. |
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12-17-2007, 05:03 PM | #160 | |
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Also, if the only thing achieved after years of causing so much long-lasting damage, is a couple of oil barrels more than before, then the current focus for repairing Iraq is disgracefully askew. Oil is a lousy choice of priority.
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