02-26-2009, 06:44 AM | #141 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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I shall give you a good advice, Valarauko. Forget all encyclopedia - use LOTR text to draw conclusions.
And in the text there is Gandalf's account of the fight in the abyss and later upon Zirakzigil: 'Deep is , and none has measured it,' said Gimli. Quote:
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02-26-2009, 01:52 PM | #142 | |||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Quote:
Quote:
On Balrog shape-shifting Quote:
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02-26-2009, 01:56 PM | #143 |
Elf Lord
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Assuming this shape-shifting theory is correct, why fall at all? Anyone see the trailer for the new Ice Age movie? If not, go do that before reading further.
Ice Age Trailer Go ahead. I'll wait. Ok, now replace the two squirrels with Gandalf and a shape-shifting Balrog.
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02-27-2009, 06:03 AM | #144 |
Hobbit
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Just for the record, that is the best scrat video I think I've ever seen.
And Jonathan, you quoted the article earlier that specifically says it's unclear as to if the Balrog is intended to be a Maia in the books. That's why I pointed out that the encyclopedia also says in one place that they definitely are. Gordis is right. The encyclopedia really isn't that good for this stuff. And are you really going to try and convince me that a "thing of slime" is somehow it's shadow making it scarier. Nice Idea Dread Pirate, but the Balrog wasn't necessarily trying to get away, and Gandalf could probably fly if he wanted to. So imagine both squirrels were flying squirrels, what then? P.S. Thanks Gordis. I hadn't remembered that part in the Two Towers. |
02-27-2009, 06:05 AM | #145 |
Hobbit
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And for the record this is great. I'm glad we're actually discussing this reasonably instead of getting into how english writing really works. This makes much more sense guys, thank you.
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02-27-2009, 02:17 PM | #146 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Well, are you trying to convince me that a "thing of slime" couldn't just be a Balrog's natural appearance, once its fire is quenched?
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02-27-2009, 05:30 PM | #147 |
Hobbit
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Well, yes I am. A creature of shadow and flame doesn't sound slimy to me, I've built plenty of camp fires in my time and when you douse them with water, they aren't slimy but more of just wet. "A thing of Slime" implies that he is now formed or is covered in a layer of the stuff to my mind. Fire and shadow just doesn't do that naturally. It would have to be him adapting to the new fighting environment. That sounds like an evil creature being clever to me, not something accidental.
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02-27-2009, 05:31 PM | #148 |
Hobbit
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To be precise, it sounds very much like an eel of some sort, a good form for fighting in the water.
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02-27-2009, 05:45 PM | #149 |
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I've never heard anyone compare a balrog to a campfire before
Anyway, "a thing of slime" could just as well imply that he's normally just really oily under all the fire. And we all know how combustible oil can be
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02-27-2009, 05:59 PM | #150 |
Hobbit
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Now come on, us balrogs do take showers occasionally.
But sure, we're very much like a self fueling campfire. I just can't see that the water truly extinguished his flame. Remember he's MADE of flame. He has power over it. I think if he really wanted to he could have boiled the water away. |
02-28-2009, 12:48 PM | #151 | |
Elf Lord
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If the Balrog could shape-shift, why didn't he? You're a physical being in a humanoid shape and you're falling into an abyss. If you have the ability to shape-shift into anything, why would you wait until you hit the water at the bottom and then change to an eel? And Gandalf could not fly, or more accurately there is no evidence anywhere that he could, so you can't use the possibility as a reason for the actions and abilities of others such as the balrog.
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02-28-2009, 10:09 PM | #152 |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Well, to start off, what shape would it change into to keep itself from falling? We know that the Balrog that Glorfindel slew couldn't save itself (pronoun used advisedly) from falling, by, say, turning itself into a ladybug. For one thing, flying requires lightness, and both Balrogs were being attacked by doughty foes that would chop a ladybug or a European land-swallow into bits. For another, even if Balrogs are assumed to have wings, flying is a complex activity, and taking off in midair while being whaled on by an angry Maia wielding a magic sword would be a feat to be talked about im many a meeting of the Utumno Reunion Society.
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03-02-2009, 06:24 AM | #153 | |
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Personally I believe the shadowy wings of the Balrog were some massive, semi-tangible dark matter related to his fiery nature, yet were completely incapable of any flight whatsoever A flightless winged Balrog, like the flightless bird on the Galapagos Islands.
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03-02-2009, 11:45 AM | #154 |
Elf Lord
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He needn't keep himself from falling. He only needed to slow down his descent to afford himself a measure of safety and a tactical advantage over Gandalf. I think the flying squirrel shape, or something similarly membranous, would have worked fine.
You slow your descent and follow Gandalf down to the bottom. Gandy plunges into the water and then just as he comes up for air you're on him. All this is assuming he is both intelligent and able to shape-shift. That he didn't seem to attempt such a thing indicates to me a lack of one or the other characteristic. That other balrogs are said to have fallen to their deaths tells me it's the latter ability that they lack.
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03-02-2009, 12:05 PM | #155 | |
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I think though this might be the wrong attribute to look at. Inasmuch we want to discuss its ability to adapt I would focus less on actual shape-changing of the body, and more on the seemingly elastic and highly weathered body mass instead. The Balrogs seemed to be of a very resilient fabric that look hard to break down.
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03-02-2009, 02:02 PM | #156 |
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Though I bet that if a dragon like Smaug was capable of flying in Tolkien's world, a winged Balrog would also be.
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03-02-2009, 03:09 PM | #157 | |
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Smaug is a giant dragon, and if we judge by The Hobbit Smaug is by nature an excellent flyer whoms entire body has undergone evolutionary steps to that effect with neat, slim features and an exceptional eyesight (much like an eagle). The Balrog on the other hand, is no dragon, and neither does it seem to have much use of flying in the chasms of Moria. Here it would climb, not fly. Likewise, although I have cursory knowledge of Silmarillion, it seems the Balrog do not attack with an aereal disposition, but from the ground. Is there any textual evidence suggesting that it does that?
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03-02-2009, 03:20 PM | #158 |
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Does Smaug have much use of flying in the tunnels of the Lonely Mountain?
Besides, the Balrogs I envision don't have wings at all, so your question about evidence of aerial attacks bounces right off me
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03-02-2009, 05:14 PM | #159 | ||
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Because the Balrog seems to have a completely different physiqué. He is of fire and smoke and other burning matter, he has some sort of wings that really no one knows what consist of so we don't really know if his wings are even capable of achieving the sort of upward lift that real flying would need. Perhaps he does like the flying squirrel.. glide, but we don't know that either
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03-02-2009, 06:30 PM | #160 | |
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Dragons are a special case, and have been portrayed repeatedly as very airy, as a result of thier fire-breathing power, and, of course, they have magical muscles to get the optimum thrust. Smaug, of course, has huge wings. I do feel that Balrogs could fly on occasion (Tolkien refers to them in the earliest form of the Silmarillion as moving with winged speed, though that has been explained as a metaphor) but agree with all the posters here that , whatever wings Durin's Bane had or had not, he had neither the room nor the opportunity to use them, as was the case with Glorfindel's Balrog.
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