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07-08-2006, 07:41 PM | #141 | |
Elf Lord
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anyway, i must away to bed, so have fun! and its been an interesting debate, goodnight all! best, BB Last edited by Butterbeer : 07-08-2006 at 07:42 PM. |
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07-08-2006, 07:42 PM | #142 |
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that's what i mentioned ages ago (posts wise at least!)
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07-08-2006, 08:58 PM | #143 | ||
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All the same, I think my answer in Post 140 is correct: the House of Elros has been destroyed by Eru Himself, and the last remaining member of that house, the Lord of the Nazgûl, is disinherited from any claim by Eru Himself: the House of Elros failed in its duties, in its oaths to the Valar: Elros must have been given some charge by the Valar, who made him King of Númenor, and that charge had to include such things as protecting the people of Númenor, defending it from evil, and following the rules that the Valar and Eru laid down. His descendants violated these strictures so definitively and so egregiously that they cannot be deemed to be acting within the terms of their sovereignty in any way, manner, or form. As a member of the House of Elros and one of the first of that house to rebel, the Witch-king would likewise lose all claim to be High-King. In addition, there is the fact that he is a committed servant of Sauron, who more than anyone else in all Arda helped bring about the Downfall of Númenor. The Witch-king absolutely cannot and must not be recognized as High-King: he is not independent, but a puppet of another, and he is committed to the cause that led to the destruction of Númenor and all its inhabitants. His master Sauron is the chief servant of Morgoth, the Enemy, and the Witch-king in turn is the chief servant of Sauron. Just as Morgoth was unfit to be ruler of Arda, regardless of whatever gifts he might have possessed in his beginnings; just as Fëanor and his descendants lost all claim to the High-Kingship of the Noldor by the murderous and wicked deeds; the Witch-king is unfit to be High-King of the Númenóreans and has lost all claim to that position. But that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t claim it all the same, and in his own mind believe that he should be king. By the way, the greatest of the Valar was unfit to rule because of his wickedness. The greatest of the Noldor was unfit to rule because of his wickedness. And if the Witch-king might be supposed to be the greatest of the Númenóreans at the end of the Third Age (a controversial notion: I think Gandalf and Elrond and all the West would object), he, too, was unfit to rule because of his wickedness. |
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07-09-2006, 04:29 AM | #144 | ||||||||||||||||||
Elven Warrior
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I would also like to stress what I said previously: the way Tom warns the hobbits about the wights - don't go near the east side unless you are "strong folk with hearts that never falter", doesn't exclude the fact that even hobbits could defeat them, or that others could - at least elves. Quote:
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07-09-2006, 08:53 AM | #145 | |
Elven Warrior
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07-09-2006, 04:17 PM | #146 | |
Lady of the Ulairi
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But at Weathertop all of the nazgul saw the burning blade and thought, correctly or incorrectly, thast they all were in danger. |
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07-09-2006, 04:20 PM | #147 | ||||||
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I can think of another parallel: Castamir & Sons. It is quite likely, that by the end of the III age, there were some descendants of Castamir left in Umbar. They were the last descendants of Anarion by an unbroken patrilineal descent, so by blood they had precedence over Aragorn for the crown of Gondor. But no one even considered them, I doubt not, because of the reasons you gave for Morgoth, Feanor and the WK. When Earnur disappeared, the Stewards didn't go fetch the new King from Umbar. By the way, their existance may have been one of their reasons not to elect the new King at all: as there would be Castamir's descendants's claim, Arvedui's son's claim, and claims from several houses in Gondor itself, whose bloodlines were not so pure, but who have been the descendants of Anarion all the same. There could only be a civil war again, had the Stewards not invented the ingenious formula: we rule "until the King returns" Just a funny thought: Likely, Castamir's descendants led this fleet coming to Minas Tirith from Umbar, that Aragorn hijacked. I am almost sure that in return for Umbar's alliance, Sauron promised the descendants of Castamir the crown of Gondor. But, it seems, he promised the same thing to the Witch-King. There was a bad surprise in store for Castamir's sons, but they were bound to learn of Sauron's treachery only too late... Quote:
- Did the WK tell Sauron about the dangerous blade in hobbit's hands after he returned to Mordor sometime in the autumn of 3018, after the disaster at the Ford? - I can bet he DID: he had to use ALL the excuses he could think of to explain his failure. He must have presented all this as a vast conspiracy, uniting Dunedain Rangers, High Elves, three Istari (didn't Saruman lie to them about the Shire? Didn't Rhadagast warn Gandalf of the nazgul appearance)), Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel, special breed of super-resistant halflings, undoubtedly bred for the purpose over the years (much like Sauron bred uruks), Wielders of Elven Rings and perhaps Valar/Eru themselves. I am sure the Witch-King's tale was really impressive and gave Sauron nightmares afterwards. It doesn't even seem he has punished his nazgul - at least it was not something prolonged or elaborate or irreversible. Moreover, Sauron needed them very much in the coming war. He gave them winged steeds and sent out again. So Sauron did know that a dangerous blade was loose in his enemies hands. But what could Sauron do about the Barrows at this point? Nothing. Neither did he care that much for his servants safety as he did for his own - for the Ring. Here I agree with CAB: Quote:
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Moreover, the impression I got from the Readers Companion quote that the swords were only harmful to the WK may be wrong. I have to read all this book to be sure, not peek at a single quote. As I said, the Cardolani most likely knew he was a nazgul, and even found his real name. So likely it was anti-all nazgul as well. That confirms my idea that the Mouth had no idea what sword was he letting his enemies take. Quote:
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07-09-2006, 08:00 PM | #148 | |||
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The first quote also applies to the question of the Nazguls' free will (which I believe is not entirely the same as the “robot” question). The quote doesn’t answer the question, but I think it gives us some clues. Notice that the prime motivator for the Witch King here is not “Sauron’s will” but fear. He seems to be more concerned with his own well being than retrieving Sauron’s Ring. This seems to indicate some free will (unless Sauron was more concerned about the Witch King’s health than obtaining the Ring; highly doubtful). Also, consider that fear was probably the prime motivator for all of Sauron’s servants. So, seeing that the Witch King acts out of fear of Sauron, (and therefore, probably the other Nazgul did as well), he probably usually* served Sauron faithfully for the same reason his other servants did; because he was afraid of him. I don’t doubt that Sauron was capable of exerting a more full control of the Nazgul (I would guess; not all of them at once) when needed, but he clearly wasn’t doing it on Weathertop. *So I am not misunderstood; I don’t mean here that the Witch King was ever disloyal to Sauron (though that can be argued). What I mean is that some of the time, Sauron could have used the rings to obtain complete control of (and therefore, complete loyalty from) the Witch King. (And, yes I do feel a bit silly using the asterisk mark.) |
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07-10-2006, 05:14 AM | #149 |
I'm Eru, and lord of Arda.
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on the topic of free will, i've posted something on this thread here.
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07-10-2006, 09:29 AM | #150 | |||
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I agree with you, CAB, and it was an excellent quote about Aule and the Dwarves.
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And note, that unlike other Sauron's slaves, the nazgul were controlled via the 9 rings Sauron held. He had their lives in his hands - they couldn't run away, or repent as other slaves possibly could. Quote:
Sauron couldn't control the nazgul all the time, as he couldn't use the Palantir all the time, or control his orcs all the time, or watch Denethor or Saruman 24x7. Poor Sau had too much on his hands. The fact that the nazgul suddenly sprang to action on that night at Weathertop, shows, I think, that Sauron was watching them at this moment and they were feeling the Eye. Last edited by Gordis : 07-10-2006 at 09:31 AM. |
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07-10-2006, 11:39 AM | #151 | |
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07-10-2006, 12:49 PM | #152 | |
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07-10-2006, 12:51 PM | #153 | |
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07-10-2006, 01:13 PM | #154 | |
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Are you talking about their pursuing the Ring-bearer to the crossing at the Bruinen? That might just be part of the assignment: Get the Ring-bearer and bring him to me. The Nazgûl would be cowardly not to try to accomplish this, even had they any say in whether they were willing or no, but I don’t believe they were cowardly. They found the situation increasingly dangerous, absolutely, and they were clearly less than pleased about that realization; but I don’t think they were cowards. Last edited by Alcuin : 07-10-2006 at 01:15 PM. |
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07-10-2006, 01:21 PM | #155 | |
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07-10-2006, 01:36 PM | #156 | |||||
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07-10-2006, 05:37 PM | #157 | |
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Maybe I am mistaken, but it seems to me that when we speak of complete loyalty, we are getting into the area of absolutes. Now, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the Witch King was truly disloyal on Weathertop, but I do think he acted less than completely loyal. Since we are dealing in absolutes, just this one case of less than complete loyalty proves that the Witch King wasn’t completely loyal. Also, that the Nazgul would surrender the Ring to Sauron doesn’t indicate any kind of loyalty to me. It indicates a lack of stupidity. I would think that loyalty (especially “complete”) is better proven by smaller things (since they were incapable of overthrowing him), the kind of things that Sauron would never notice . On the other hand, failure by one of the Nazgul to yield the Ring could hardly go unnoticed, and would surely draw the worst possible punishment that Sauron could deliver. |
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07-10-2006, 05:37 PM | #158 |
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bumping up.
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07-10-2006, 05:53 PM | #159 | |
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Exactly, CAB! True loyalty is a thing of heart, it can't be obtained by fear. When somebody is loyal, just because he has no choice in the matter , it is poor loyalty. The Nazgul are loyal at the end of the Third Age, because Sauron has their Nine Rings. They were loyal in the Second Age because Sauron had the One and they wore the 9. But when Sauron had no hook for them, do you think they were loyal still? And why would they be? Out of love? Last edited by Gordis : 07-10-2006 at 05:54 PM. |
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07-10-2006, 06:05 PM | #160 |
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that's what i've said in my posts 151 and 155.
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