09-11-2003, 03:54 AM | #141 |
Elven Warrior
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In other words BB, you think that it is alright to "dumb" down the movies as much as they like?
3 hours is ample time to show 30 second scenes rather than wasting a whole hour on needless and pointless things (wargs, refugees etc). So your "nice" sarcasm does not have to be confined to the EE DVDs.
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09-11-2003, 07:46 AM | #142 |
Elf Lord
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Dumb down = (verb) A term frequently used by naive Tolkien purists who have no clue whatsoever how screenplays are written or movies are made.
Durin1, you clearly disagree with Jackson's choices. But the success of the films would seem to indicate that PJ knew a tad bit more about how to bring LOTR to the big screen than you. |
09-11-2003, 10:22 AM | #143 | |
Elven Warrior
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Rather, it is your obvious disdain for us "purists". Aside from the banter, it seems that you cannot appreciate that people will have differing opinions about what would constitute a good screenplay and a decent movie. Instead of being patronising, wouldn't it be a better use of your energy if you devoted it to actually finding something positive to say? rather than being so dismissive when people actually find faults in PJ's adaptation.
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09-11-2003, 12:30 PM | #144 | |
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09-11-2003, 02:26 PM | #145 |
Elf Lord
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Melko Belcha: Ok, so it was absolutely necessary to the movie plot that the Second Age ended in 3434 and not in 3441?
BB: OMIGOD!!! How on Earth did I miss that!?!?!?! These films have suddenly lost all of their appeal to me now. I can't believe what dolts Jackson and his crew were for making such a horrendous oversight!!! Melko Belcha: Was it absolutely necessary to the movie plot that Gandalf brought the Rohirrim to the Battle of the Hornburg down from the East? I guess the audience watching the movie would never believe that they came from the West. BB: Movie Adaptation Rule Number One: Make an entertaining movie. I guess Peter Jackson thought the drama of having Gandalf and the Rohirrim charge down the mountain from the east as the sun appears over the horizon was worth a little literary license. To me this is a perfect example of the dangers of purist thinking. If Jackson had taken the Melko Belcha approach, we movie fans would have lost one of the most brilliant ten seconds of cinematography in the history of film. Melko Belcha: Was it absolutely necessary to the movie plot that only Uruks fought at Helm's Deep instead of like in the book where it was Uruks, Orcs, Dunlendings, and Orc-men? BB:The focus of the second film was that Saruman's army was bred with a single purpose, to destroy the world of men. Melko Belcha: And I guess that since it is a fantasy movie the audience would never had believed that Theoden is influenced by the words of a crooked counciler, but had to be possessed by Saruman and had to take an exorcism to free him. BB: OKay, do it the Melko Belcha way. How are you going to explain Theoden's change of heart to the audience in the same amount of time as Jackson was able to do? An exorcism was effective on both a visual and dramatic level AND it explained the dramatic change in Theoden for the audience without unnecessary exposition. Under your scenario, I might complain that the change in Theoden was hokey because Gandalf talks to the old coot for a bit and - bango - he's suddenly his old self again. I would argue this would have felt much less realistic to the audience than the exorcism you complain about did. Melko Belcha: There are so many changes that had to be done because God knows nobody really appreciates the original. BB: Actually, the changes were made so that the audience could better appreciate the original. I would suggest you train your high powered focus on the big picture instead of Middle Earth dates and directions. If you do, you might just find something very special in these films you hadn't noticed before. |
09-11-2003, 03:48 PM | #146 | ||||
The Insufferable
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Black Breathalizer, do yourself and everyone else a favor and shut up, if you're going to refuse to be reasonable.
You have repeatedly made ridiculous claims, and then been insulting and derogatory to anyone who disagrees with you, and you divert the issue when problems with your arguments are pointed out. This is not your high school debate class. You don't get points for trashing everybody else. So get over yourself. Case in point: You say Quote:
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For the record, you're right. That change doesn't ruin the movie. And even as a rabid, foaming at the mouth book purist I can't really bring myself to make a big deal of it. However... The fact that Jackson and Co. would change this for no other reason that they can seems to me to be an indicator of exactly how little respect they hold for the original author. Who knows, it may have been a genuine mistake, but in that case it still shows how carelessly the story was handled. Now, back to your earlier statement: Quote:
Now, examine what made it into the movie. Well, to be honest, most of the bits that were cut are more or less understandable. They're mostly peripheral to the main plot, although there were a few that would have been great to have in. However, the line of reasoning that 'they couldn't leave everything in' fairly falls apart in light of the great amount of footage that was added which had no basis in the text and did nothing to move the plot forwards. Great examples of this would be the scene in moria where roughly a million goblins just stand there without attacking and then run away, or the ridiculous, interminable 'collapsing stairs' scene shortly after. The horrible, pointless 'Aragorn's death' sequence. And (Be honest with me, please), the hour or so of exaggerated fight sequences? Even you, would be hard pressed to claim that's nescessary to move the plot forwards. Jackson is a hack, who had never turned out a successful movie before he produced LOTR. To claim that anyone who dissagrees with his choices 'doesn't get filmmaking' is a child's tactic, and not worthy of you, BB. The fact that he can successfully follow the standard action-movie formula does nothing to show he's any good. "Titanic" grossed more than either of jackson's LOTR films so far, and almost as much as them both together. Yet it was an eminently forgettable film, and it's since faded from the public consciousness. Only time will tell, but I predict the same will happen to Peter Jackson's films.
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09-11-2003, 07:20 PM | #147 | |||||
Elf Lord
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Fran Walsh: And the second age ends in 3441... Phillipa Boyens: No no no, Fran...let's use 3434 instead...it works so much better! Fran Walsh: You are SO right. That's brilliant! Why didn't I think of that!??!!? I refuse to ignore the attention to detail shown by Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Phillipa Boyens, Alan Lee, John Howe, Richard Taylor, the actors, Weta, and everyone else involved because of a mistake made by a junior copy editor. Quote:
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09-11-2003, 07:50 PM | #148 | ||||
The Insufferable
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I thought that particular scene, and a number of others, were cheesy action, not drama (That's right. It was corny and cheesy!). One of the most dramatic scenes in the film, for me, was the first shot of helm's deep. The visuals and soundtrack of that scene were thrilling, imho. In regards to what people unfamiliar with the story thought, I'll have to ask a few everymen what went throught their heads. Quote:
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I well understand your point, and I hope you understand mine. I merely wanted to direct your attention to the fact that having a high gross in the box office doesn't nescessarily make a good movie.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 09-11-2003 at 07:52 PM. |
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09-12-2003, 09:30 AM | #149 | |||||
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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09-12-2003, 09:21 PM | #150 | |
Elf Lord
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You can question the decisions of PJ and Company but no one who has any inside knowledge of how the films were made can question their devotion to Tolkien and love of the books. |
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09-12-2003, 09:39 PM | #151 |
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Breathalizer, with all due respect, what else would they say?
Do you honestly think that, whatever PJ's view might have been, the backstory videos would have been any different? Do you honestly think that Jackson would ever admit 'No, I think tolkien's writing sucked so I don't have any qualms about changing things.' Of course not! You should recognize the background clips for what they are- propaganda. How the filmmakers truly felt is shown by their words, not their actions. You know what, I do think that PJ and co liked the books. You could even say that they were fans. But 'Devoted to Tolkien'? Hardly. Jackson himself indicated something to the effect that he wanted to make these films, not because of any devotion to the author, but because he thought they could be profitable. The filmmakers, judging from their art, are all the kinds of people who picked up the LOTR, read it, and said. "Gee, that was a good book." without more than a cursory attempt to understand the intricacies of the sub-created world. Because they only had a surface understanding, they only portrayed the surface in film. That's their real failing, and that's the reason that the Jackson films have indeed resulted in ignorant fans - they were made by ignorants, for ignorants.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 09-12-2003 at 09:41 PM. |
09-13-2003, 10:47 AM | #152 |
Elf Lord
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You can find some in every crowd:
The "Flat Earth" Society http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm The "Elvis is Alive" Society http://elvis-lives.8m.com/iselvisalive.html The "Bigfoot Exists" Society http://www.n2.net/prey/bigfoot/ and now, we have... The "Jackson is a No-talent Hack who's so-called 'Respect for Tolkien' is Sheer Propaganda" Society http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com |
09-14-2003, 02:47 AM | #153 |
The Insufferable
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And you're a member!!!
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09-14-2003, 03:22 AM | #154 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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of course changes have to be made to the book. But Jackson cut out most of the keep points in charatcer development and replaced them with over the top action sequences. Farmer Maggot - turned into an action scene where he chases after the hobbits instead of inviting them in for dinner. The Ringwraith - cutting off the head of a hobbit (the ringwraiths were not physically violent, they were pyschologically frightening). The stupid extension of Moria, Half way through I just wish someone would just friggin die already. It's way too long and could have been cut in half and then they could have gotten the gift giving in there. The Council of Elrond - turned into a heated argument (again - adds nothing to the story - not to mention there were like 9 people only at the council). Aragorn falling off the edge of the cliff - completely unnecessary and ridiculous - again Jackson implies that Arwen has magic powers to bring people back to life. The constant dwarf tossing jokes. Don't go on and on about the filmakers having to stick with what was absolutely necessary to keep the plot moving along. They added so much ridiculous fluff it contradicts your argument. Jackson did far more than just make the NECESSARY changes to bring the books to the screen. But he's an action director - his past films demonstrate that. What more can you expect from him but action, cheap overacted emotional scenes, and cheap jokes.
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09-14-2003, 03:28 AM | #155 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Please - supply we with a movie you have directed so I can purchase it. It'll allow me to confirm that you actually know something about movie making - at least more than us "ignorant" book fans. If you can't - then shut up already about how we don't understand what it takes to make a movie - because then you don't know anymore than what we do. By the way - I know people who write screen plays.
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09-14-2003, 03:37 AM | #156 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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All the situations you seem to mention in your posts that are impossible to bring to the screen have been brought successfully to the screen by countless other directors. You argue on and on how the ringwraiths had to be made the way they were in the movies because you can't bring the psychological terror to the screen. It's amazing all the pychological horror movies out there where not a single drop of blood is spilled. I have a supicion that your guide to movie making is George Lucas and not much beyond that. By the way - I don't care that Glorfindel or Tom Bombadil were cut out. Neither one were necessary to the overall story. I don't care about the dates, or the location of troops - those are unnecessary to the overall story. I would have also have replaced Glorfindel with another character - but there is no excuse for taking Frodo's strength and removing the key scene of him standing up and rejecting the Nazgul and giving it to Arwen. There are many things Jackson did that were completely UNNECESSARY and turned the movie too far away from the book.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 09-14-2003 at 03:41 AM. |
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09-14-2003, 03:46 AM | #157 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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09-14-2003, 03:57 AM | #158 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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My sister worked in Hollywood PR - it's amazing that you bought his load of lies. However, going by your ridiculous and constant defense of the films no matter what - I shouldn't be suprised you bought them hook, line and sinker. As I have said and Wayfarer has said - Jackson is a hack.
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09-14-2003, 04:09 AM | #159 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Actually BB - Jackson IS a no talent hack. That is why all his films have sucked. The Lord of the Rings in my opinion is only a C average movie. Exaclibur is a far better movie than Jackson - it has more emotion and feeling. It doesn't resort to lame jokes (although one part annoys me when Merlin hits his head), or cheesy slow motion in almost every scene. There is only one part in excalibur where they use slow motion I can remember - that is when they are galloping through the Cherry Blossoms and works very well. The LotR movies will fall off the face of the movie radar screen within a few years of release of RotK - just like Wayfarer pointed out Titanic did. As for Star Wars - the only real classic in the Star Wars series was part IV (Star Wars). I can add possibly Empire Strikes Back - but after that they all quickly go down hill. Also - Star Wars was a classic becuase so much of the movie was new in techonological achievements in special effects and NOT in the story telling part. You can't honestly think that Phantom Menace (which I actually had to look on my DVD case for the name because I forgot) and Attack of the Clones were good films. By the way Wayfarer - I think you meant to say... "How the filmmakers truly felt is shown not by their words, but their actions." instead of ."How the filmmakers truly felt is shown by their words, not their actions."
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 09-14-2003 at 04:21 AM. |
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09-14-2003, 08:59 AM | #160 |
Elf Lord
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Jerseydevil & Wayfarer:
You may want to get started crafting your "Jackson is STILL a no talent hack, a Best Director Academy Award doesn't meant squat," comments to post here on March 1 of next year. It's always important to never let facts get in the way of a good Purist rant. |
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