What makes you thankful to live in a free country?

[jerseydevil]

Here are some behind the scenes discussions on Wikiepedia when some people wanted to use USAmerican and the term USian instead of the correct word American.

I removed the article link to USian. I think it's very misleading as that neologism (yes, it is one, technically) is basically never used outside of Wikipedia and a few random sites (like usian.org). Just because someone was able to coin a word, I don't think it immediately makes it encyclopedic. There are a lot of non-preferred words we don't link to for similar reasons (including offense which is definitely a factor for USian). Just because a few pedantic or prejudiced editors object to the existence of the term "American", does not mean we need to link to a made-up so-called alternate word. The word is not used. People who live in the USA are "Americans" and almost all Americans want to be called "Americans" and virtually everyone calls them "Americans". Wikipedia should not be advocating language changes by trying to spread neologisms that were dead on arrival. Daniel Quinlan 20:03, Aug 15, 2003 (UTC)

I am troubled by the lack of specification that the use of American as a self-descriptor in North and South American nations is basically confined to Latin American countries. In Canada, it is generally considered an insult to refer to one as "American." Call a Canadian "American" and you will definately be corrected, if not assaulted.

In Canada "American" means the United States...we don't describe ourselves as being "American" as in "from the Americans." Well, sometimes people do, but usually the only people who do that are the kinds that want Canada to join the US as a new state...otherwise Canadians are North Americans, Peruvians are not Americans, they are South Americans, as are Argentinians. (I've actually never heard Cubans being descibed as any sort of American, not even Central American.) Just thought I would add this, it seemed relevant Adam Bishop 18:51 20 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The disambiguation page seems like more of a hassle than it is worth, whenever someone writes the word "American" in English, it is clear that it refers to a resident of "The United States of America". I have never heard it used in any other way. I would suggest changed this page to a redirect, but I won't change it because it seems some people feel very strongly about this realistically non-existent multiple meaning. What do other rational people think?

When speaking in English, only pedants insist that "American" is not specific enough, when the reality is that everyone knows what you mean by "American" since there is only one country in the two American continents that includes "America" in the name (and in English too). In other meanings, you just say "North American", "Central American", "South American", or "Latin American". Seriously, when speaking in English, what Canadian or Mexican would say "I am American" rather than "I am Canadian" or "I am Mexican"? Daniel Quinlan 04:21, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

This category of change is definitely political correctness run amok. How about waiting until we have a significant number of Canadians and Mexicans complaining about the American==USian assumption before hacking up hundreds of articles. The Wikipedia way would be to have the disgruntled Mexicans start making the changes, not to have some patronizing gringo do it. Stan 05:47, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

(anon 209.26.112.106 (Special:Contributions 209.26.112.106) says Changing citizenship to anything other than "American" is to be disrespectful. Insisting on something other is bearing a grudge against Americans. "American" was used to describe colonists in the British Colonies in North America. We, the people of the United States of America, refer to ourselves as Americans, less commonly as United States Citizens. Other terms would be derogatory. I personally like Yankee, but others from other regions would find it insulting. So "Samuel Clemens- a US author" is disrespectful. He is an American author.

Well, the offense is less at the term itself than it is at being told, effectively from without, that they must use other terms than those which they generally use to self-identify. Also, remember that the term "US" is more associated with the nation-state construct per se, and "American" with the overall culture and like of English-speaking North America north of Mexico and south of Canada. --146.151.47.17 10:58, 18 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The "politically incorrect and culturally agressive" argument aside, from my (European) perspective "American" just doesn't look right, because "America" is far bigger than the Unites States. My impression is that "U.S. American" is inoffensive and not an ugly neologism, so how about replacing "American" with it like in "Thomas Edison was a U.S. American inventor" ? Kosebamse 13:10, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"U.S. American" is highly offensive. Our nationality is American. Nothing else. And it certainly IS a neologism, and incredibly ugly, at that. RickK 19:01, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

Good idea. I do think there is a genuine distinction between the accepted use of the noun and adjective as using the argument for not using America in reference to the US goes but, possibly for the lack of any other non contrived adjective, American does not follow this where the context is clear. However, in fairness, I like the compromise of U.S. American. At first I thought it clunky, but it fits and certainly reads better than using "United States" as a adjective and avoids awful neologisms. Dainamo 14:23, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Avoids awful neologisms"? It is an awful neologism. We had better start using British European, and oh no, I mean, United Kingdom European, and Federal Republican European. I don't know how we will differiantiate the various Kingdom Europeans, perhaps Dutch Kingdom Europeans, Danish Kingdom Europeans, etc.. This is the English Wikipedia and in English the form for citizens of the United States of America is "American". We also use U.S. as an adjective, just as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland uses Briton and UK. We don't often use the spelled-out "United States" as an adjective, however. I think you would also "a UK citizen" not "a United Kingdom citizen". Rmhermen 14:36, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)

... This is moronic that people are even debating this. We aren't trying to be as poltically correct as possibly. AMERICAN is the common term used today by almost all people. it's the dictonary defination, we aren't trying to change the language here with wikipedia. In even other languages they refers to people in united states of american as americans(Like Amerika Person in Japanese means a person from U.S.A)

[jerseydevil]

continued...

In Canada, "American" does not refer to people from the continent(s), it refers to people from the United States. I'm certainly not "American." I'm not sure what Spanish or French usage on the rest of the continent is, or what English-speaking people say in Belize and wherever else they speak English. Adam Bishop 17:52, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The usage of "American" as the accepted adjective for the U.S. is scarcely disputable. I had understood that U.K. usage of "America" meant the U.S. uniquely, and would be surprised to find a Londoner in Toronto thinking he'd "come to America", but perhaps I stand to be corrected there. ("America", outside the forms "North America", "South America" or "The Americas"—always plural, as there is no continent of America—is rare in Canada, where the U.S. is "the U.S." or "the States".) Offense might be taken if "American" were used to refer to the whole of North America or as the sole location of English in the New World, but anyone reading that into "American" is looking for a scrap and will find one whatever we do.

* Although I had considered suggesting the usage of "Yankee" or "Yank" instead, I decided I didn't want to alienate all those lovely Bostonians who like using the Wikipedia. ;-) But humor aside, consider this: If I stood up in a crowd in some unnamed location in the world and yelled, "I AM AN AMERICAN!" what meaning do you think they would find in that statement? —Mike 20:58, Oct 16, 2004 (UTC)
o It's not the Bostonians who would mind, it's the Southerners. There's an old joke about a man from Alabama travelling in Latin America, seeing a sign saying "Yankee go home" and saying "I couldn't agree with you more." -- Jmabel | Talk 00:42, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

Doesn't the same question come up with term "British"? We don't call say "United Kingdom inventor", do we? anthony (see warning) 22:44, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Anyone who has questioned the definition of freedom on this thread has been told in no uncertain terms that their contribution is not welcome.

It's not questioning the definition of freedom - it's the fact that they btich about lack of freedom - instead of what the thread is about. Also - as I said - just because someone isn't able to be their own person because of peer pressure - isn't because of a lack of freedom - it's because of a lack of selfworth and respect. They HAVE the freedom to wear what they want - they just don't have the willpower to do what they want though. There is a big difference. Tell me where the government is telling her what to wear or how to cut her hair.

I don't think it's Hemel who has a problem with not liking other people's definitions of freedom.

Well you see that's the great thing about starting a thread - the thread startr gets to determine what it's about. It's about - maybe this time you will understand - "What makes you thankful to live in a free country?" Is that such a hard question for people to understand the meaning of? It's not about why you think you don't live in a free country or how you are seemingly oppressed or anything like that. It is "what makes you thankful to live in a free country?" pure and simple. Show me anywhere in her posts which addressed the question of the thread.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

I find "euro-whiner" to be offensive as well. I echo Rian's request to have that post edited, as per Hemel's 'offensive' US-American editing.

Ditto.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Ditto.

Well if some people will give Americans respect by not using the term USAmericans - then I won't use Euro-whiners. Everyone seems to say that by hemel's post being edited out that it restricts her freedom of expression. and that it isn't a deragatory statement - well I do find it deragatory as do many americans who have in the past expressed that it does. Yet she continues to use it. I have never once gotten an apology from her regarding it's use - so no one will hear an apology about the use of euro-whiner, kraut, etc. from me.

Many have mocked the issue - such as BoP - by putting such words as "offensive" in quotes to to describe USAmericans. That is another reason I see no reason to change my stance. No one wants to have respect here - I'll show no respect here.

[sun-star]

It seems contradictory to me to demand respect while saying you're determined not to show respect to anyone else. You can't claim that using offensive terms is wrong and then do it yourself just to make a point.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by sun-star

It seems contradictory to me to demand respect while saying you're determined not to show respect to anyone else. You can't claim that using offensive terms is wrong and then do it yourself just to make a point.

If she were to show respect - then I would show respect. We have been over the term USAmerican. IN 2002- I used to get a lot of complaint for using English interchangeably with British. I made a conscience effort not to do that unless there was some reason to - such as not being given respect. Yes it's probably wrong to drag the germans into this and the french and to lump all europeans into this - but this USAmerican term is just one more example of the lack of respect and the contempt that comes out of Europe and the rest of the world when it comes to America. If this was some other country - people would be expected to bend over backwards not to offend, but because it's america - the idea is "who the hell cares - I'll just call them whatever the hell I like."

Everyone is screaming that her freedoms are being restricted and everyone turned this into a "see how we don't have freedom". Well I've just demonstrated how people wish to restrict my freedom - but yet defend her right to be deragatory to Americans - by using a term that has been made up and that she knows pisses most Americans off. Several people mentioned the irony of this thread - and yes it is very ironic. The same people who are demanding that she be allowed to use USAmerican - even though it pisses many americans off - have a problem with my free expression of using the term euro-whiner.

As I said - I will freely allow her to use the term USAmerican and I won't bitch about it - as long as I'm able to use words such as Euro-whiner that piss people off.

[The Gaffer]

Honest question: do you honestly think that "USAmerican" is equivalent, in terms of offensive potential, to "Euro-whiner"?

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As I said - I will freely allow her to use the term USAmerican and I won't bitch about it - as long as I'm able to use words such as Euro-whiner that piss people off.

OK, fine. Then let's look at it in terms of which words are allowed on Entmoot. USAmerican was edited out, and Euro-whiner has not been, despite the fact that both cause offence. Does that seem fair to you?

EDIT: I don't know if this counts as criticising moderating decisions - it isn't intended to be, but I'm interested to know if USAmerican is now considered a banned word or something while Euro-whiner isn't.

[EarthBound]

Don’t mean to interrupt the current dialog, but I’ve been thinking about my post on this thread for a while and I’m ready to post.

Me. Little ol'me. Has been to the Whitehouse, been decorated by an Admiral, put myself through college, lived in 6 states and visited 20, attended church since I was wee with my grandmother, was married in that same church without any problems from the Government, I've never been told I don't matter by the government because I come from the wrong family or don't make enough money....and importantly, I get to sit in this great office, behind a cool computer, and talk with the BEST kind of people (MOOTERS!) while family, friends, & complete strangers voluntarily serve in the military and civil positions to protect me, willing to 'risk death' for me and my freedom...no small thing. (Kept it personal as thread designates by first-person design).

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

from what i can see...

USAmerican = offensive to americans, although merely statement of geographical relationship

Euro-whiner = generally offensive, and insulting, especially the "whiner"

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by sun-star

OK, fine. Then let's look at it in terms of which words are allowed on Entmoot. USAmerican was edited out, and Euro-whiner has not been, despite the fact that both cause offence. Does that seem fair to you?

The reason that the term Euro-whiner was not edited out was because it was posted to make a point and because it was provoked. I have asked several times for the word "USAmerican" not to be used for obvious reasons. There does seem to be a double standard here. Complaints that the term "USAmerican" has been edited out because it provoked the entire unpleasant incodent should have been allowed, but Euro-whiner shouldn't be. IMO neither should be used because they both cause nothing but trouble.

EDIT: I don't know if this counts as criticising moderating decisions - it isn't intended to be, but I'm interested to know if USAmerican is now considered a banned word or something while Euro-whiner isn't.

The only banned words on Entmoot are the words that don't get through the filter, which are few. In the case of "USAmericans " I am asking you (meaning members that use it) to voluntarily refrain from useing it in the interest of maintaining peace on the forum. However, if you choose to continue useing it, knowing the problems that will arise from its use, then I have no other alternative but to edit it out of your posts.

We at Entmoot are a community, we, in a sense, live with each others opinions and we communicate with each other on a daily basis. To keep our community safe and crime free, we have laws in place and police to enforce them. We ask the community's cooperation in complying with the laws or the requests of the police to keep it a safe and happy enviroment and pleasent place to post. So this means not useing terms that some may find offensive such as: USAmericans" and Euro-whiners. It stops now.

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

The reason that the term Euro-whiner was not edited out was because it was posted to make a point and because it was provoked. I have asked several times for the word "USAmerican" not to be used for obvious reasons. There does seem to be a double standard here. Complaints that the term "USAmerican" has been edited out because it provoked the entire unpleasant incodent should have been allowed, but Euro-whiner shouldn't be. IMO neither should be used because they both cause nothing but trouble.

That's my opinion too, and I was hoping both would be edited out since one already was.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

This is off-topic, but I would like to commend SGH for sticking with this situation and trying to resolve it, instead of throwing up her hands, saying we can all go to a place that doesn't exist according to many people's beliefs , and not moderating anymore.

I may disagree with her sometimes (certainly not very often - I think she is an excellent admin), but I certainly commend her for bearing the vast, vast majority of moderating responsibilities (unpaid), and doing a great job. Let's remember that no one is perfect, and she does a darn good job, and that if any of us became a moderator, we'd make mistakes sometimes, too.

Thank you Rian, I appreciate that.

This is a good community - let's all give up a little ground for the benefit of the greater good of the community.

My point exactly.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by sun-star

That's my opinion too, and I was hoping both would be edited out since one already was.

I don't have a problem with SGH deleting all the posts dealing with this - or deleting out euro-whiner. Although - if the posts are edited out - then it loses it's meaning. I will refrain from using euro-whiner as a general description as long as it is understood that many Americans (most actually) recent the USAmerican term being used and that USAmerican is NOT to be used.

And last child - USAmerican is NOT "merely a statement of geographical relationship" That is why you don't understand why it pisses many of us off. It's a matter of self. I can be called Robert, Bob, Rob - but if I'm called Bert, Bobby or Robby - it pisses me off. American has a particular symbolism with it - "American Dream", "American Revolution", "America the Beautiful", "American Flag", etc. USAmerican is cold and distant.. You may not understand - but then again - you aren't American and aren't having your nationality redefined and relabeled. Also - Euro-whiner is only offensive to those who are European. The term Euro-whiner doesn't affect me or Americans at all - nor does it affect Canadians, just like you claim that USAmerican only affects Americans. So don't try to say that it's generally offensive - because its not. It's MERELY a description of a geogrpahical location's attitude.

[Nurvingiel]

USAmerican doesn't make sense anyway. If you're from the United States of America, you are American. Just as if you are from the Czech Republic, you are Czech. You are not CzechRepublican or some other non-sensical name.

Since I'm from Canada I can be called Canadian, Canadienne (in French. Canadien for guys), or a Canuck (perfectly acceptable slang). If you call me a Canucklehead or some other stupid nickname I might have to send the Crack Squad of Attack Beavers after you.

USAmerican annoys me and I'm not even American. Euro-whiner annoys me equally. And I don't care who started it.

To eliminate confusion about continent residenecy, say North American for residents of said continent, and American for people from the USA.

Now there are no excuses for erroneous labels.

Erm... yes. Just thought I'd add my two öre there.


I might have mentioned the freedom to use the internet already, but this is a great one. We can complain about the internet, and the media as being a bit biased or whatever you want to say, but I can't even begin to imagine how biased the media in, say, China is. Not to pick on China unnecessarily here, because I bet there are many countries who restrict their citizens' access to news, but it's a good example.

Linaewen... are you in China right now? (Why do I think you're on exchange at the moment?)

If so, you could give people Peacefire.org links.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by EarthBound

Don’t mean to interrupt the current dialog, but I’ve been thinking about my post on this thread for a while and I’m ready to post.

Me. Little ol'me. Has been to the Whitehouse, been decorated by an Admiral, put myself through college, lived in 6 states and visited 20, attended church since I was wee with my grandmother, was married in that same church without any problems from the Government, I've never been told I don't matter by the government because I come from the wrong family or don't make enough money....and importantly, I get to sit in this great office, behind a cool computer, and talk with the BEST kind of people (MOOTERS!) while family, friends, & complete strangers voluntarily serve in the military and civil positions to protect me, willing to 'risk death' for me and my freedom...no small thing. (Kept it personal as thread designates by first-person design).

EarthBound - that's pretty impressive stuff. Makes me thankful to live here just to hear it

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Since I'm from Canada I can be called Canadian, Canadienne (in French. Canadien for guys), or a Canuck (perfectly acceptable slang). If you call me a Canucklehead or some other stupid nickname I might have to send the Crack Squad of Attack Beavers after you. )

ROTFLMAO. Wow. You just made me realize how much I miss my home. It's amazing how much like another world it can feel even being in a different part of the US from where I grew up. And though I'm not Canadian, I live in washington...the STATE, I've spent some time in BC, and feel much closer culturally to the people there than to the people here in the Northeast. It's just weird.
Oh, I may go to Alaska to visit relatives this summer, and am very curious to see what it's like there. I personally love the people and culture and landscape of the US, but am often unhappy with all the various governments present. But that goes for governments around the world.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by Embladyne

And though I'm not Canadian, I live in washington...the STATE, I've spent some time in BC, and feel much closer culturally to the people there than to the people here in the Northeast. It's just weird.

WORD to that.

And I'm happy we have two free nations next to each other that we CAN go between so easily as to make that possible.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

WORD to that.

And I'm happy we have two free nations next to each other that we CAN go between so easily as to make that possible.

Woot woot! It's true. I find it amusing that Victoria had to choose between Canada and the US. And I like the place by the Peace arch where you can walk over the border. It saddens me that it's no longer as trustful as it used to be when you cross the border, though. And in all actuality, Canada is much closer to where I live than where I am now. So geographically as well as culturally, it's more similar.