Was the Ring Evil? - Page 8

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-28-2004, 02:53 PM

He probably will now you've suggested it.

Attalus · 08-28-2004, 10:27 PM

No-o-o-o-o-o-o!

katya · 08-29-2004, 12:20 AM

Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts:
What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective.
If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil.
Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose.
I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions.
I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively.

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-29-2004, 03:13 AM

Here we go again

Radagast The Brown · 08-29-2004, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katya

Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts:
What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective.
If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil.

You can't really use science here, because it's a fantasy - and doesn't work like the actual things... example - the sun in tolkien is the flower of a tree, carried by a maia.

It's a tool, yes, but one that worked on it's own, from the moment it left its master. It created Gollum - Gollum was evil in my opinion, although I suppose others can disagree. The Ring twisted the former Smeagol, that was apparently a hobbit. See what we've got? Without the Ring Gollum be dead by that time, but happy as he lived.

Quote:

Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose.
I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions.
I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively.

I agree that the gold itself can't really be evil... as it has no thoughts. But the power in the Ring was evil, and you agree. It was no longer Sauron's power from the moment the ring wasn't his. That power couldn't leave the gold itself as well... which, for me, means it's a part of the ring, with the gold. Which means the Ring was evil, and not in the control of someone else - it was evil, just like the Nazgul were - or now you're going to say they aren't?

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 12:23 PM

Concur heartily. The Ring was a magical artifact. Magic is either Black or White, whatever relativists might say. Any good action of the Ring's like saving Bilbo from the Sackville-Baggins was incidental, just the cheese in the trap.

katya · 08-29-2004, 01:34 PM

Yeah, the ring was evil. Just like an evil man (being?). Any personallity that the ring had was evil too. But I don't believe in evil metal. So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil.

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 05:35 PM

Im and not going to get started in this again. But I am glad that someone is joining the cause. And we have made it to 8 pages. And no hard feelings. I just hope things dont get out of hand with constant flaming and stuff. That would be too bad so evewryone play nice.

Do Balrogs have wings......

?

BeardofPants · 08-29-2004, 06:02 PM

Actually Katya, you are wrong. The GOLD is tainted by evil. This was posted earlier on in the thread from several excerpts from Morgoth's Ring (in which Morgoth's ring IS middle earth, and his evil de-marked gold even more-so, and is partly the reason that Sauron *could* make a ring of power that powerful.)

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katya

So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil.

This makes absolutely no sense. Once again, you folks think you are confuting our arguments with bare assertions of your beliefs without any supporting quotes or any logic, whatsoever.

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haradrim

Do Balrogs have wings......

?

Yes, they do. Quotes available on request.

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 07:58 PM

I know Balrogs have wings I was just amking a joke because someone earlier said I hope he doesnt argue about Balrog's Wings so I made a joke of it. Sorry if it was misinterpreted.

Attalus · 08-29-2004, 08:34 PM

It wasn't misinterpreted. I guess I shoud have added a smiley:

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 09:57 PM

oki;lyy dokily thanks for the hints!

katya · 08-29-2004, 11:23 PM

Ok, ok, so I guess if Tolkien says the gold is tainted by evil, then it must be. After all, it is a fantasy, and he's the boss. When you write a story, you are the one who creates the universe. So, I guess I'll accept that the gold is evil. But it's still impossible. Because gold can't be evil. I don't think so anyway.
When I said "The Ring is evil, but the ring wasn't evil", I meant that the ring as a person or entity was evil, but the gold wasn't. However, I will retract that statement as I do accept the gold to be evil. Even though it's silly.
This is funny!^^

Haradrim · 08-29-2004, 11:38 PM

the gold can be evil because Melkor tainted it with his evil . SO the gold is evil. The ring is evil and the power fo the ring is evil. and yes I have switrched positions for the moment. If someonee comes along with good evidence supporting rign nonevilness Ill switch again.

BeardofPants · 08-30-2004, 02:27 AM

I hope you mean wings of shadow, Attalus!

Telcontar_Dunedain · 08-30-2004, 02:45 AM

But even if the gold wasn't evil the Ring still would be because the spirit in the Ring was part of the Ring that couldn't be taken out

Haradrim · 08-30-2004, 03:22 AM

I totally and only whole-heartledly agree! The god was taitned. THe gold mde the ring and and the ring was tainted. A spirit is put into ring ring becomes more vil. EVrything ise vil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHhahhehehehehhhooo......

BeardofPants · 08-30-2004, 05:12 AM

Man, you two are annoying.

08-28-2004, 02:53 PM	#141
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	He probably will now you've suggested it. __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-28-2004, 10:27 PM	#142
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	No-o-o-o-o-o-o! __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

08-29-2004, 03:13 AM	#144
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	Here we go again __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-29-2004, 12:23 PM	#146
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	Concur heartily. The Ring was a magical artifact. Magic is either Black or White, whatever relativists might say. Any good action of the Ring's like saving Bilbo from the Sackville-Baggins was incidental, just the cheese in the trap. __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

08-29-2004, 01:34 PM	#147
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	Yeah, the ring was evil. Just like an evil man (being?). Any personallity that the ring had was evil too. But I don't believe in evil metal. So while The Ring was evil, the ring wasn't evil. Last edited by katya : 08-29-2004 at 01:39 PM.

08-29-2004, 12:20 AM	#143
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	Hey sorry for butting in but...here's my thoughts: What is this "evil" you guys are talking about? You speak of gold being tainted by evil, but what is it? Certainly the gold's physical properties haven't changed. It's rather fantastic to say that it was given some sort of spiritual matter, so to speak, that changed it. So what has actually changed about the gold? It's completely subjective. If Sauron used the ring to evil, it's a tool. By pouring his own evil soul into the ring, it's still just a tool. If I am evil, does that mean that the molecules that make up my body are evil? It's all just imaginary. The atoms making up gold can't be evil. If they are, tell me how. Specifically. Therefore, gold can't be evil. Tolkien says it's evil. I don't have quite enough understanding of this, but my guess it that either it was a completely subjective thing, and guilty by association, or else just because it was used for some evil purpose. I guess the only way you could define evil is something that defies Eru. Sauron's self inside the ring was sinful. The matter making up the ring didn't have conciousness, intent- it's incapable of karmic actions. I think the ring is just a tool. Like the "house" Haradrim mentioned or my soul inside my material body (assuming I have one- I'm not claiming that I do). I'd like to know specifically what changes happen to a particle to make it evil. Objectively.

08-29-2004, 05:35 PM	#148
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	Im and not going to get started in this again. But I am glad that someone is joining the cause. And we have made it to 8 pages. And no hard feelings. I just hope things dont get out of hand with constant flaming and stuff. That would be too bad so evewryone play nice. Do Balrogs have wings...... ? __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 06:02 PM	#149
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Actually Katya, you are wrong. The GOLD is tainted by evil. This was posted earlier on in the thread from several excerpts from Morgoth's Ring (in which Morgoth's ring IS middle earth, and his evil de-marked gold even more-so, and is partly the reason that Sauron could make a ring of power that powerful.) __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-29-2004, 07:58 PM	#152
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I know Balrogs have wings I was just amking a joke because someone earlier said I hope he doesnt argue about Balrog's Wings so I made a joke of it. Sorry if it was misinterpreted. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 08:34 PM	#153
Attalus Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: On the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 1,125	It wasn't misinterpreted. I guess I shoud have added a smiley: __________________ "What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial.

08-29-2004, 09:57 PM	#154
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	oki;lyy dokily thanks for the hints! __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-29-2004, 11:23 PM	#155
katya Elven Maiden Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 3,309	Ok, ok, so I guess if Tolkien says the gold is tainted by evil, then it must be. After all, it is a fantasy, and he's the boss. When you write a story, you are the one who creates the universe. So, I guess I'll accept that the gold is evil. But it's still impossible. Because gold can't be evil. I don't think so anyway. When I said "The Ring is evil, but the ring wasn't evil", I meant that the ring as a person or entity was evil, but the gold wasn't. However, I will retract that statement as I do accept the gold to be evil. Even though it's silly. This is funny!^^

08-29-2004, 11:38 PM	#156
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	the gold can be evil because Melkor tainted it with his evil . SO the gold is evil. The ring is evil and the power fo the ring is evil. and yes I have switrched positions for the moment. If someonee comes along with good evidence supporting rign nonevilness Ill switch again. __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-30-2004, 02:27 AM	#157
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I hope you mean wings of shadow, Attalus! __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-30-2004, 02:45 AM	#158
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	But even if the gold wasn't evil the Ring still would be because the spirit in the Ring was part of the Ring that couldn't be taken out __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

08-30-2004, 03:22 AM	#159
Haradrim The Official Court Jester of the Entmoot Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Far Harad Posts: 1,006	I totally and only whole-heartledly agree! The god was taitned. THe gold mde the ring and and the ring was tainted. A spirit is put into ring ring becomes more vil. EVrything ise vil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHhahhehehehehhhooo...... __________________ A Bit More Grown Up This Time...

08-30-2004, 05:12 AM	#160
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Man, you two are annoying. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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