06-12-2003, 10:23 PM | #1461 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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There is always an absolute truth - but man will most likely not get to the absolute though. There is always something to learn. Chances are there is more than just unverses out there - more than we understand. It still does not mean that a god exists.
There had been the question on the evolution thread as to whether the world was created by a superior being is reasonable. And of course it is reasonable when a person lacks certain knowledge about things. Say I go back in time with a battery powered DVD player. I show the ancient inhabitants a movie on it. Because of their limited knowledge and understanding - they will most likely think that it contains little people acting out the movie. To them this is a reasonable belief - to me it is not because I understand the science behind a DVD player. In all actuality though - I would be burned at the stake as a sorcerer or a servant of Satan - they may believe that I use the device to capture people's souls. These are all reasonable thoughts with the limited knowledge they would have of a dvd player.
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06-13-2003, 02:39 PM | #1462 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-13-2003, 02:42 PM | #1463 | ||
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 02:43 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 02:53 PM | #1464 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hobbit - I only have time for one part of your post now ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-13-2003, 03:38 PM | #1465 | |
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What are you talking about? You basically ignored my points from that paragraph and focused on that christianity camp or group or whatever.. I have already said that I do not know all that it is about... of course if it is like a christian summer camp or whatever then I would expect there to be Christian stuff! Don't you see that my argument is with actively converting?
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You are very wrong. If I were to talk to those two little girls, I would not tell them what I believe to be right because that is my own bussiness and I do not believe in forcing my own beliefs on others. If that topic in a conversation came up , then, and ONLY THEN would I talk about this. Unlike many christians, I do not feel obligated to share my beliefs with others. In any event, thanks for trying to pick apart one of my smaller points :P
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06-13-2003, 06:24 PM | #1466 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And if your argument is with "actively converting", then why did you write the things you did about the summer camp? Hmm? WHY? Did that girl walk up to those 2 little girls somewhere on the street and start talking about God? No, it was at the context of a summer camp, a CHRISTIAN summer camp, where it makes perfect sense that God will be talked about. Now will you drop your objection to the camp issue or not? Quote:
And as far as your (2), where you said: "why would my beliefs have to come up in any conversation?" - hey, look - you ARE talking about your beliefs here, and this is a conversation, isn't it? But it makes sense to talk about it here, because that's what this thread is about! Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 06:30 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 07:09 PM | #1467 |
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no
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-13-2003, 07:53 PM | #1468 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What is your 'no' to? The first line of my post or the last? (or somewhere inbetween!)
I'll assume it's the last. About the summer camp thing, you said: Quote:
If you're talking about collaring people on the street and talking about religion whether they want to or not, I don't like that either. I think I know what you're saying when you say: Quote:
Perhaps I'm being v. dense here, but I really think that you're contradicting yourself and making overbroad statements, esp. ones like: Quote:
Shall I try to express what I think you're trying to say, or do you want to give it another shot?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-13-2003 at 07:54 PM. |
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06-13-2003, 07:55 PM | #1469 |
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no, i am not contradicting myself and you are trying to pick apart little things in my posts.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-13-2003, 08:21 PM | #1470 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I am trying to DISCUSS things in your post! This involves going over the details of the post. Shall I just say "I disagree with your post" and leave it at that, or shall I go over the areas that I disagree with and discuss why I disagree with them? You wanted me to discuss your post, and that's what I'm trying to do!
OK, I'll try to put into words what I think you are saying. I'll probably get shot down but just maybe it will help. I'll put actual phrases that you used in quotes. Do you mean something like this: I really don't like the fact that many religions seem to feel that they need to be "actively converting" other people that think differently than they do. I think it's demeaning that these people think that other people are wrong, and I especially hate when the people are arrogant and/or act superior. Even though I think that absolute truth exists, I think that people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe. I realize that these people think that their religion expresses the absolute truth, or perhaps the closest possible thing to the absolute truth, but I wish they would just leave other people alone, except unless other people want to talk about religious matters. OK, how's that? How would you change it? Or do you want to give up trying to talk about it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-13-2003, 09:16 PM | #1471 |
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Sure. Pretty much.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-14-2003, 01:24 AM | #1472 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, well it looks like you and I are at an agree-to-disagree point here. I don't think there's any logical point to argue anymore.
While agreeing (as far as I can tell) that absolute truth exists, you don't think people that believe they've found the absolute truth on the subject of God/gods should bug other people that believe differently and try to get them to change their minds. So what that implies, to me, is that apparently the absolute truth isn't particularly important. I really appreciate your being angry when people are superior about it, though, because that shows a care and concern for others, which I think is very important. As far as Christians, there is CERTAINLY no Biblical reason that I can see for them to feel superior in any way to anyone else. Now one particular Christian can be commended by God more than another for his/her obedience, but that's different than feeling superior. I think that absolute truth exists, too, in the area of God/gods, and I think the Christian beliefs as expressed in the Bible reveal as much of the truth as human minds can hold, while still being entirely the truth (i.e., it is NOT made partially untrue because it is an incomplete revelation, as IP suggested). I think that the truth in this area is important enough for me to spend a lot of time and careful thought on threads like this, but I don't think people can be "forced" to accept the truth. In fact, I was in a certain Christian organization in college, and was being considered for a leadership position, but I ended up leaving the organization because the leaders were required to do some "cold turkey" witnessing, and I just couldn't do it. I'm with you in that obnoxious, superior people really irritate me, and I think they are counter-productive as far as trying to "save" people, but I apparently am in disagreement with you as far as the summer camp thing, because I think that there was no "forcing" involved, and it was obviously fine with the parents for the kids to be there. Now I hope that there was no "peer-pressure"-type forcing involved, either, which can happen in these situations, especially if the leadership is into numbers ("look how many people she saved!") as opposed to people and hearts and sincere and honest and loving discussion as to why Christianity is believed to be the absolute truth, and sincere joy when the person you're talking with comes to know that truth, too. I'm sorry the "actively converting" bugs you - I imagine you've come across some irritating people - but can you see if one believes that the truth is very important, that it becomes not only reasonable, but KIND, in that person's mind, to share their faith? IOW, I know that it's true that I'm drinking some delicious chai tea with french vanilla creamer and a bit of sugar, but I don't feel compelled to spend a lot of time on a thread talking about it and trying to show logical reasons behind why I believe it to be the best drink. But I DO feel that Christianity expresses the absolute truth about the state of the universe, and that it's an extremely important truth, and that it's well worth my time (and it's even kind and loving on my part) to spend lots of time on this thread trying to clear up doctrinal misconceptions that affect how a person views Christianity, or discussing why I believe it to be true (which I've never even done yet, IIRC!). For me, becoming a Christian is the most important thing that has happened to me - it is truly life-changing, and in the best possible way (altho not always an easy way, but sometimes God has to work deep works through difficult times). Any comments/disagreements/etc., or shall we move on to the next point in your post? If you'd like to move on, do you want to pick the point to cover next?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-14-2003 at 01:33 AM. |
06-14-2003, 01:55 AM | #1473 | |||
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I also agree that the existence of ab. truth does NOT mean that a god exists. It doesn't mean that a god does NOT exist, either, as I'm sure you know. The only reason that I try to establish that it's reasonable that ab. truth exists is because (1) I think it's true, and (2) I don't think you can really analyze anything and draw any logical conclusions about anything if you don't believe this. And I think that it is a logical conclusion that what the Bible says is true (and I hope to get to the reasons why I believe this eventually, because some people have asked me.) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-14-2003 at 01:58 AM. |
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06-15-2003, 01:03 AM | #1474 |
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anything in my post is fine...or whatever you wish to discuss. i might sneek in an hour of posting..but tomorrow i should really be studying a lot for finals...monday, tuesday, wednesday. 5 exams. i will get on to make replies though.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-15-2003, 01:26 AM | #1475 | |||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - the hearsay on how something works in the REAL world is a lot more reliable than the hearsay contained in a book that no one knows who wrote. You seem to haev no problem beliefing that hearsay. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-15-2003 at 01:30 AM. |
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06-15-2003, 01:33 AM | #1476 |
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*applause*
Are you sure there aren't little actors in my dvd player?
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-15-2003, 02:21 AM | #1477 | |
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06-15-2003, 02:25 AM | #1478 |
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Yes, I'll wait for her evidence, but I don't see how Rian could have evidence that we have not heard yet. Even though it does not seem like it, I am keeping an open mind.
It just seems that if there really were such compelling "evidence" for creation, then more ppl would believe in it........ and if there really is physical evidence, we would be hearing more about it from the scientific community rather than what is now (majority of scientists support evolution, a handful of 'scientists' support creation). JD and I have seen lots of 'evidence' for creation, and none of it really works. I'm just wondering if what Rian is going to post will be anything new. If not, then what JD says is right.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
06-15-2003, 02:28 AM | #1479 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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06-15-2003, 02:31 AM | #1480 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 06-15-2003 at 02:33 AM. |
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