Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[jerseydevil]

There is always an absolute truth - but man will most likely not get to the absolute though. There is always something to learn. Chances are there is more than just unverses out there - more than we understand. It still does not mean that a god exists.

There had been the question on the evolution thread as to whether the world was created by a superior being is reasonable. And of course it is reasonable when a person lacks certain knowledge about things. Say I go back in time with a battery powered DVD player. I show the ancient inhabitants a movie on it. Because of their limited knowledge and understanding - they will most likely think that it contains little people acting out the movie. To them this is a reasonable belief - to me it is not because I understand the science behind a DVD player.

In all actuality though - I would be burned at the stake as a sorcerer or a servant of Satan - they may believe that I use the device to capture people's souls. These are all reasonable thoughts with the limited knowledge they would have of a dvd player.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Agalayth
...It's hard to believe that there are people in the world who deny that the Holocaust happened, when there are survivors telling their stories, and there is all this information, and the locations, and the documents, and urgh it makes me so angry when I hear about these people.

Yeah, amazing! Thanks for the book recommendation, it sounds like a fascinating (but difficult) read.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok, good then maybe someone at the charity I drop the book off to ("A Case For Christ") will enjoy it.

I hope they will I also hope you will reconsider - in fact, I'll ask you directly - would you please read the book on my recommendation, Ruinel?

I see you haven't gotten to my question yet. PM me when you do.

Only if you ask nicely (remember that little six-letter word starting with "please"? )

[Rían]

Hobbit - I only have time for one part of your post now ...

I have a problem with religions that convert a lot. Like a quote from someone earlier: "and got to teach kids about Christ. 2 little girls in my group were saved and alot more were saved in other groups." What does that mean?? does it mean that you forcibly changed the beliefs of two little girls who have very impressionable minds? I'm not really sure what program you were talking about or what it is about though, but that is the impression that I got. Changing the beliefs forcibly of many Native Americans, African peoples, and various Island people and other natives (sorry for lumping em all together). Their belief systems were perfectly valid.

By "forcibly", are you saying that perhaps the girls were denied food or shelter unless they said they believed Christianity? Think about it - if YOU were to talk to these girls, you would say (and I'll quote from something you said earlier) - "Sure I believe what I think is right, but I do not think that it is absolutely right." And I assume that you would also say that you, personally, do not think there is a God. The point is that you would share, sincerely, what YOU believe to be true. Or would you share what you believe to be false? Would you say "I sincerely think that Islam is completely true"? No, you would say what YOU think to be true. And that's what that girl that was talking about the camp was doing. Do you think that these little girls' parents would send their daughters to a Nazi camp? I doubt it - so it must have been ok with the parents to send their girls to a Christian-based camp, knowing that Christianity would be talked about, don't you think? Now if they sent their kids to a computer camp and Christianity got shoved down their throats w/o their consent, that's different.

[HOBBIT]

What are you talking about? You basically ignored my points from that paragraph and focused on that christianity camp or group or whatever.. I have already said that I do not know all that it is about... of course if it is like a christian summer camp or whatever then I would expect there to be Christian stuff! Don't you see that my argument is with actively converting?

Think about it - if YOU were to talk to these girls, you would say (and I'll quote from something you said earlier) - "Sure I believe what I think is right, but I do not think that it is absolutely right." And I assume that you would also say that you, personally, do not think there is a God. The point is that you would share, sincerely, what YOU believe to be true. Or would you share what you believe to be false? Would you say "I sincerely think that Islam is completely true"? No, you would say what YOU think to be true.

How about not. When I talk to people, I don't go: "hello, how are you? Hey, I believe that there is no god!!!! you must believe that!!!" No, I'd say practically never that conversation would come up. 1. I have not completely rulled out the possibility of a god - just definitely ruled out jesus :P. 2. why would my beliefs have to come up in any conversation?

You are very wrong. If I were to talk to those two little girls, I would not tell them what I believe to be right because that is my own bussiness and I do not believe in forcing my own beliefs on others. If that topic in a conversation came up , then, and ONLY THEN would I talk about this. Unlike many christians, I do not feel obligated to share my beliefs with others.

In any event, thanks for trying to pick apart one of my smaller points :P

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
What are you talking about? You basically ignored my points from that paragraph and focused on that christianity camp or group or whatever.. I have already said that I do not know all that it is about... of course if it is like a christian summer camp or whatever then I would expect there to be Christian stuff! Don't you see that my argument is with actively converting?

Hobbit, would you please read the first line of my post again!! Here it is: "Hobbit - I only have time for one part of your post now ... " - I did NOT ignore the rest of your post, I just had a 12:30 appointment I needed to get to, and since I do not have a laptop and wireless internet, I had to only deal with a part of your post! Geez, it's been less than 24 hours since you posted it, right? Give me a break! (And I intend to take my own sweet time answering, BTW! But it will be as fast as I possibly can, while keeping my other responsibilities in order.) You brought up MULTIPLE points in that post. I addressed 1 of them and intend to get to the rest - ok?!

And if your argument is with "actively converting", then why did you write the things you did about the summer camp? Hmm? WHY? Did that girl walk up to those 2 little girls somewhere on the street and start talking about God? No, it was at the context of a summer camp, a CHRISTIAN summer camp, where it makes perfect sense that God will be talked about. Now will you drop your objection to the camp issue or not?

...When I talk to people, I don't go: "hello, how are you? Hey, I believe that there is no god!!!! you must believe that!!!" No, I'd say practically never that conversation would come up. 1. I have not completely rulled out the possibility of a god - just definitely ruled out jesus :P. 2. why would my beliefs have to come up in any conversation?

And when I talk to people, I don't go: "hello, how are you? Hey, I believe that there is a god!!! you must believe that!!!" If you want proof, please check my first hundred posts or so on Entmoot. I DO talk about my beliefs on religious threads, ESPECIALLY when I'm requested to, like you've requested me to.

And as far as your (2), where you said: "why would my beliefs have to come up in any conversation?" - hey, look - you ARE talking about your beliefs here, and this is a conversation, isn't it? But it makes sense to talk about it here, because that's what this thread is about!

You are very wrong. If I were to talk to those two little girls, I would not tell them what I believe to be right because that is my own bussiness and I do not believe in forcing my own beliefs on others. If that topic in a conversation came up , then, and ONLY THEN would I talk about this. Unlike many christians, I do not feel obligated to share my beliefs with others.

I meant that if you were there at the camp and you heard the girls being talked to and were asked what you thought. I didn't make that clear. I did NOT intend to suggest that you would collar them right off the street and start telling them your beliefs!! But if you were asked by them, you would share what YOU consider to be true, wouldn't you?

In any event, thanks for trying to pick apart one of my smaller points :P

You're welcome :P. Are you now willing to withdraw your objections to the summer camp thing, where you said: "does it mean that you forcibly changed the beliefs of two little girls who have very impressionable minds? "

[HOBBIT]

no

[Rían]

What is your 'no' to? The first line of my post or the last? (or somewhere inbetween!)

I'll assume it's the last.

About the summer camp thing, you said:

by Hobbit
of course if it is like a christian summer camp or whatever then I would expect there to be Christian stuff!

So what's wrong with talking about Christian stuff, then, in that situation?

If you're talking about collaring people on the street and talking about religion whether they want to or not, I don't like that either.

I think I know what you're saying when you say:

Don't you see that my argument is with actively converting?

But could you try to word it a little more precisely, because I don't see how you could say what you did in the first quote and then refuse to withdraw your objections to the summer camp.

Perhaps I'm being v. dense here, but I really think that you're contradicting yourself and making overbroad statements, esp. ones like:

why would my beliefs have to come up in any conversation?

especially since it's clear that your beliefs are coming up in this conversation!

Shall I try to express what I think you're trying to say, or do you want to give it another shot?

[HOBBIT]

no, i am not contradicting myself and you are trying to pick apart little things in my posts.

[Rían]

I am trying to DISCUSS things in your post! This involves going over the details of the post. Shall I just say "I disagree with your post" and leave it at that, or shall I go over the areas that I disagree with and discuss why I disagree with them? You wanted me to discuss your post, and that's what I'm trying to do!

OK, I'll try to put into words what I think you are saying. I'll probably get shot down but just maybe it will help. I'll put actual phrases that you used in quotes.

Do you mean something like this: I really don't like the fact that many religions seem to feel that they need to be "actively converting" other people that think differently than they do. I think it's demeaning that these people think that other people are wrong, and I especially hate when the people are arrogant and/or act superior. Even though I think that absolute truth exists, I think that people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe. I realize that these people think that their religion expresses the absolute truth, or perhaps the closest possible thing to the absolute truth, but I wish they would just leave other people alone, except unless other people want to talk about religious matters.

OK, how's that? How would you change it? Or do you want to give up trying to talk about it?

[HOBBIT]

Sure. Pretty much.

[Rían]

OK, well it looks like you and I are at an agree-to-disagree point here. I don't think there's any logical point to argue anymore.

While agreeing (as far as I can tell) that absolute truth exists, you don't think people that believe they've found the absolute truth on the subject of God/gods should bug other people that believe differently and try to get them to change their minds. So what that implies, to me, is that apparently the absolute truth isn't particularly important. I really appreciate your being angry when people are superior about it, though, because that shows a care and concern for others, which I think is very important. As far as Christians, there is CERTAINLY no Biblical reason that I can see for them to feel superior in any way to anyone else. Now one particular Christian can be commended by God more than another for his/her obedience, but that's different than feeling superior.

I think that absolute truth exists, too, in the area of God/gods, and I think the Christian beliefs as expressed in the Bible reveal as much of the truth as human minds can hold, while still being entirely the truth (i.e., it is NOT made partially untrue because it is an incomplete revelation, as IP suggested). I think that the truth in this area is important enough for me to spend a lot of time and careful thought on threads like this, but I don't think people can be "forced" to accept the truth. In fact, I was in a certain Christian organization in college, and was being considered for a leadership position, but I ended up leaving the organization because the leaders were required to do some "cold turkey" witnessing, and I just couldn't do it.

I'm with you in that obnoxious, superior people really irritate me, and I think they are counter-productive as far as trying to "save" people, but I apparently am in disagreement with you as far as the summer camp thing, because I think that there was no "forcing" involved, and it was obviously fine with the parents for the kids to be there. Now I hope that there was no "peer-pressure"-type forcing involved, either, which can happen in these situations, especially if the leadership is into numbers ("look how many people she saved!") as opposed to people and hearts and sincere and honest and loving discussion as to why Christianity is believed to be the absolute truth, and sincere joy when the person you're talking with comes to know that truth, too.

I'm sorry the "actively converting" bugs you - I imagine you've come across some irritating people - but can you see if one believes that the truth is very important, that it becomes not only reasonable, but KIND, in that person's mind, to share their faith? IOW, I know that it's true that I'm drinking some delicious chai tea with french vanilla creamer and a bit of sugar, but I don't feel compelled to spend a lot of time on a thread talking about it and trying to show logical reasons behind why I believe it to be the best drink. But I DO feel that Christianity expresses the absolute truth about the state of the universe, and that it's an extremely important truth, and that it's well worth my time (and it's even kind and loving on my part) to spend lots of time on this thread trying to clear up doctrinal misconceptions that affect how a person views Christianity, or discussing why I believe it to be true (which I've never even done yet, IIRC!). For me, becoming a Christian is the most important thing that has happened to me - it is truly life-changing, and in the best possible way (altho not always an easy way, but sometimes God has to work deep works through difficult times).

Any comments/disagreements/etc., or shall we move on to the next point in your post? If you'd like to move on, do you want to pick the point to cover next?

[Rían]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
There is always an absolute truth - but man will most likely not get to the absolute though. There is always something to learn.

In the area of science, certainly; therefore, I sure hope that you don't believe that the theory of evolution is true! After all, "There is always something to learn"!

Chances are there is more than just unverses out there - more than we understand. It still does not mean that a god exists.

I agree that there is more "out there" than we understand. On what do you base your "chances are" statement? Some scientific information, or just an opinion?

I also agree that the existence of ab. truth does NOT mean that a god exists. It doesn't mean that a god does NOT exist, either, as I'm sure you know. The only reason that I try to establish that it's reasonable that ab. truth exists is because (1) I think it's true, and (2) I don't think you can really analyze anything and draw any logical conclusions about anything if you don't believe this. And I think that it is a logical conclusion that what the Bible says is true (and I hope to get to the reasons why I believe this eventually, because some people have asked me.)

There had been the question on the evolution thread as to whether the world was created by a superior being is reasonable. And of course it is reasonable when a person lacks certain knowledge about things. Say I go back in time with a battery powered DVD player. I show the ancient inhabitants a movie on it. Because of their limited knowledge and understanding - they will most likely think that it contains little people acting out the movie. To them this is a reasonable belief - to me it is not because I understand the science behind a DVD player.

Your analogy breaks down, JD, with your "lacks certain knowledge" thing, IMO. In your example, you have definite knowledge (or actually, unless you've built the things, you're just relying on hearsay!) of how a DVD player works. However, we will NEVER have "definite knowledge" of how the world and the stuff in it got here. So we are forced to rely on logical analysis and inference from the scientific data that we DO have; would you agree? And if I can ever plow through the questions that I keep getting on the evolution thread and get to actually presenting some evidence (note - EVIDENCE, not proof, just as there is no PROOF, just EVIDENCE, for evolution) then you can evaluate it yourself. I hope you'll do an honest evaluation.

[HOBBIT]

anything in my post is fine...or whatever you wish to discuss. i might sneek in an hour of posting..but tomorrow i should really be studying a lot for finals...monday, tuesday, wednesday. 5 exams. i will get on to make replies though.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
In the area of science, certainly; therefore, I sure hope that you don't believe that the theory of evolution is true! After all, "There is always something to learn"!

YOu must get confused with KNOWING something versus absolute truth. I realise that we don't KNOW EVERYTHING about evolution - but that is what science is there discovering. Even if you refuse to believe it.

I agree that there is more "out there" than we understand. On what do you base your "chances are" statement? Some scientific information, or just an opinion?

It goes by experience. Everytime people have said we've discovered the largest or the smallest item - something else is found.

I also agree that the existence of ab. truth does NOT mean that a god exists. It doesn't mean that a god does NOT exist, either, as I'm sure you know. The only reason that I try to establish that it's reasonable that ab. truth exists is because (1) I think it's true, and (2) I don't think you can really analyze anything and draw any logical conclusions about anything if you don't believe this.

Absolute Truth has nothing to do with science or belief - if has to do with what is. Whether we know it or not or have discovered it or not - there is an absolute truth and it's already out there. It's not going to be found by reading a book that no one knows who wrote though. The truth will only be found by searching for it scientifically.

And I think that it is a logical conclusion that what the Bible says is true (and I hope to get to the reasons why I believe this eventually, because some people have asked me.)

You can't get to absolute truth - unless you die and there ends up being a heaven - then that will be the only way you can find absolute truth.

Your analogy breaks down, JD, with your "lacks certain knowledge" thing, IMO. In your example, you have definite knowledge (or actually, unless you've built the things, you're just relying on hearsay!) of how a DVD player works.

So you believe that because you haven't built a DVD player that it would be reasonable fo you to assume that their are little people acting it out? Do you think there is a little perosn inside your can opener that turns it? or have you looked to make sure there isn't a gnome in there?

By the way - the hearsay on how something works in the REAL world is a lot more reliable than the hearsay contained in a book that no one knows who wrote. You seem to haev no problem beliefing that hearsay.

However, we will NEVER have "definite knowledge" of how the world and the stuff in it got here. So we are forced to rely on logical analysis and inference from the scientific data that we DO have; would you agree?

We will have enough knowledge and scietific proof to make an INTELLIGENT decision.

And if I can ever plow through the questions that I keep getting on the evolution thread and get to actually presenting some evidence (note - EVIDENCE, not proof, just as there is no PROOF, just EVIDENCE, for evolution) then you can evaluate it yourself. I hope you'll do an honest evaluation.

You can't really provide evidence because it is only based on a BELIEF that their is a god. What evidence is there that there is. If you can't supply evidence of that then intelligent design is nothing more than evolution and religion and the concept of god is nothing but a fairty tale.

[HOBBIT]

*applause*

Are you sure there aren't little actors in my dvd player?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
You can't really provide evidence because it is only based on a BELIEF that their is a god. What evidence is there that there is. If you can't supply evidence of that then intelligent design is nothing more than evolution and religion and the concept of god is nothing but a fairty tale.

Now, don't you think it would be better to wait and see her evidence, rather than predetermining that there is none?

[HOBBIT]

Yes, I'll wait for her evidence, but I don't see how Rian could have evidence that we have not heard yet. Even though it does not seem like it, I am keeping an open mind.

It just seems that if there really were such compelling "evidence" for creation, then more ppl would believe in it........ and if there really is physical evidence, we would be hearing more about it from the scientific community rather than what is now (majority of scientists support evolution, a handful of 'scientists' support creation).

JD and I have seen lots of 'evidence' for creation, and none of it really works. I'm just wondering if what Rian is going to post will be anything new. If not, then what JD says is right.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Now, don't you think it would be better to wait and see her evidence, rather than predetermining that there is none?

There can be NO evidence of god - and therefore no evidence of intelligent design. The whole backbone of intelligent design is that something of intelligence (mostly believed to be god) created it. Unless she can provide such evidence - she can not provide evidence of heaven, hell or creationism - it is a belief.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
(majority of scientists support evolution, a handful of 'scientists' support creation).

Ah, so those who don't believe the same way you do are phonies?

There can be NO evidence of god

The truth will only be found by searching for it scientifically.

Therefore, as there can be NO evidence, it is automatically false, or you automatically discount the possibility?