03-30-2005, 08:16 PM | #1421 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(test post for a very good purpose)
EDIT - rats, can't report my own post to a moderator!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-30-2005, 08:32 PM | #1422 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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SO - you atheists out there - what evidence do you have to support YOUR position?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-30-2005, 10:04 PM | #1423 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I made that comment about atheism and agnosticism the way I did on purpose - I wanted to see the thoughts people came up with. And now that I've seen a couple of reactions, I'll explain a little more.
From my experience, people that call themselves "agnostic" have made a decision in exactly the same manner as those that call themselves atheists or Christian or some other brand of belief. There's NO "proof" for Christianity, or atheism, or agnosticism (in the sense of "we can't know about God"), or any other world view. There's only evidence, and we have to make the best decision we can, based on our evaluation of the available evidence, both subjective and objective . From my experience, agnostics are of two basic types (agnostics, feel free to chime in here!) - 1. those who say we CANNOT know if God/god/gods exist or not, and 2. those who say we can't (or don't) know ENOUGH to make a good decision if God/god/gods exist or not. So they basically say that they just are undecided on the issue, because they can't or don't know for sure. And that is a decision - JUST like atheists and Christians and other belief-holders make. And they base their morality on that decision - JUST like atheists and Christians and other belief-holders. If someone asks me why I don't murder, one reason would be that I believe that the God as described in the Bible exists, and He made humans in His image, and they are incredibly precious and valuable to Him and to each other, and it is therefore WRONG to kill people. If I were to ask an agnostic if they don't murder because of what the Bible says, I think they would say something along the lines of "no, I don't know if the Bible is true or not, so I don't go by what it says - I'll go by what I think is right or wrong." (is this right, agnostics? I've heard this before from agnostics, btw, but I'm not claiming that ALL agnostics think this way.) See, the agnostic JUST MADE A MORAL DECISION based on their BELIEF SYSTEM. IMO, agnosticism is NOT "neutral", any more than any other belief. It is a decision with very important ramifications, just like choosing Christianity or atheism or Buddhism or Christianity-plus-whatever-I-think-different or whatever other belief is out there.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-30-2005 at 10:09 PM. |
03-30-2005, 10:08 PM | #1424 |
The Intermittent One
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can i just say that the death of a sentient beign provokes a disgust in my heart, and this has nothing to do with religion at all, just i feel ut is wrong to remove intelligence
(obviously most people choose to replace sentient being with person, their choice) |
03-30-2005, 10:10 PM | #1425 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I'm not surprised to hear that, Chrys, because I think you are a very kind and moral person
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-30-2005, 11:11 PM | #1426 |
Quasi Evil
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It will never fail to amaze me that you are incapable or seperating religion from person. or maybe you just have a maddening need to equivocate christianity with everything you see. even if its nothing at all.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-31-2005, 01:54 PM | #1427 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
At some point things like not eating pork, or always eating with a particular hand, or not working on the Sabbath were survival needs. Of course once a behavior persists past it's usefulness, it's called maladaptive, but that's beside the point, and grist for a later post. As for proving it, I suppose I should just ask you to prove that it doesn't. Since it's my hypothesis, (not to mention a lot of other peoples), I've shown that it is a plausible explination based on what we know about how human society and evolution works. If you think you have evidence contradicting it, then lets hear it. I've already stated that other primates have similar concepts of "moral" codes such as fairness, and even punish other members of the troop when they "cheat". It's also easy to point out how such behaviors are linked to individual, troop, and species survival. And it's not a very long step from examining those kinds of behaviors, to comparing them to human social behaviors and mores. Nor is it all that terribly difficult to point out how they are linked to the survival of the individual, group, or species. Take incest taboos for example. Pretty easy to see how they are linked to species survival. They provoke a rather strong gut reaction. That gut reaction is your genetic heritage talking directly to you. And almost every culture has an incest taboo. It gets codified into the societies mores. Other behaviors that have survival value also get codified into social mores, but what happens when the environment changes, and such behaviors are no longer succesful survival strategies? They become maladaptive.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-31-2005, 01:54 PM | #1428 | |||
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I don't get it IREX...
Quote:
(And... um... R*an... if your own post had something that should be reported to a moderator, why wouldn't you just edit it out?) EDIT: *waves to Blackheart in cross-posting*
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Nurvingiel : 03-31-2005 at 02:04 PM. |
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03-31-2005, 02:07 PM | #1429 |
Quasi Evil
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I wasnt talking about her comment to chris of course. i was referring to her big speach where she preached about how agnostics dont realize that they think just like christians only different. found it fairly insulting. and entirely missing the point of what agnosticism is.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-31-2005, 02:18 PM | #1430 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
"10. You can THEN make a subjective decision based on objective evidence " Quote:
"5. You can go and objectively verify that primates change their social behaviors in response to their environment." or "7. You can go and objectively verify that these changes in spirituality are in response to changes in the environment." Reading comprehension! Quote:
Imitation and impression. Perhaps you got confused by the idea that genetics interact with culture over long periods of time. But cultures have their own evolutionary contribution. It's one of the reasons humans are almost a resiliant as cockroaches when it comes to their ability to exploit environments. Cultures can evolve and adapt much more rapidly than the genotype. If you have a stable enough type of culture, then eventually those behaviors that are imitated and passed on do become a genetic heritage, in that any aberant genes contributing to contrary behavior are selected against. Quote:
It may be a subjective conclusion, but it is definately NOT unfounded...
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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03-31-2005, 06:28 PM | #1431 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-31-2005, 06:32 PM | #1432 |
Quasi Evil
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no...
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
03-31-2005, 06:35 PM | #1433 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
If you want to turn it around and say Christians don't realize that they think just like agnostics only different, that's fine with me. Quote:
My point was simply that people have different beliefs, but their moral choices are based on their beliefs. Do you agree with this? Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-31-2005, 06:39 PM | #1434 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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03-31-2005, 06:54 PM | #1435 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
Quote:
The environment is external, so what is left inside a person that drives their behavior, according to you, is their genes. This is a massive assumption, and one with which I heartily disagree. Quote:
Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-31-2005 at 06:55 PM. |
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03-31-2005, 06:58 PM | #1436 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-31-2005, 06:59 PM | #1437 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
His point is an excellent one, IMO, and I await your proof along with inky. Here's his post again, for your convenience: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-01-2005, 02:10 PM | #1438 | |||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
But since it is a mix, it takes a lot longer for behavior to become "predisposed", and it takes much longer. Quote:
In order for these behaviors to persist long enough to have an impact on the genetic code, they must be culturally transmitted. If you want to be disingenious and over simplify the process into the disredited idea of pangenes, then go ahead, but you're completely missing the point. Quote:
here's a little light reading for you. Adler, L. & Gielen, U eds. 1994. Cross-cultural topics in psychology. Westport: Praeger. Barkow, J., Cosmides, L. & Tooby, J. 1992. The adapted mind: Evolutionary psychology and the generation of culture. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Brislin, R. 1993. Understanding culture’s influence on behavior. New York: Harcourt Brace Publishers. Brodie, R. 1996. Virus of the mind: The new science of memes. Seattle: Integral Press. Brown, D. 1991, Human universals. New York: Mc Graw Hill. Bruner, J. 1996. The culture of education. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. Buss, D. 1999. Evolutionary psychology: The new science of the mind. Boston: Allyn & Bacon. Buss, D. 1994. The evolution of desire: Strategies of human mating. New York: Basic Books. Burke, J. & Ornstein, R. The axemaker’s gift: Technology’s capture and control of our minds and culture. New York: Putnam. Boyer, P. 2001. Religion explained: The evolutionary origins of religious thought. New York: Basic Books. Caine, G. & Caine, N. 1991. Making connections: Teaching and the human brain. Menlo Park: Addison Wesley. Churney, R. 2001. “The biology of learning and implications for teaching.” http://www.comfsm.fm/socscie/biolearn.htm. Damasio, A. 1999. The feeling of what happens: Body and emotion in the making of consciousness. New York: Harcourt Brace. Dawkins, R. 1995. River out of eden: A darwinian view of life. New York: Basic Books. Dawkins, R. 1982. The extended phenotype: The long reach of the gene. Oxford: Oxford University Press. Dawkins, R. 1998. “Postmodernism Disrobed,” Nature, vol. 394, pp. 141-143) Degler, C. N. 1991. In search of human nature: The decline and revival of Darwinism in American social thought. New York: Oxford University Press. Diamond, J. 1999. Guns, germs, and steel: The fates of human societies. New York: W.W. Norton & Company. Diamond, M. & Hopson, J. 1999. Magic trees of the mind: How to nurture your child’s intelligence, creativity and healthy emotions from birth to adolescence. New York: Penguin Books. Dennett, D. 1995. Darwin’s Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the meanings of life. New York: Simon and Schuster. Donald, M. 1991. Origins of the modern mind: Three stages in the evolution of culture and cognition. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. Dugatkin, L. & Godin, J. 1998. “How females choose their mates,” Scientific American, April, 1998. Dunbar, R., Knight, C. & Power, C. eds. 1999. The evolution of culture. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press. Evans, D. & Zarate, O. 1999. Introducing evolutionary psychology. Cambridge: Icon Books Freeman, D. 1983. Margaret Mead and Samoa: The making and unmaking of an anthropological myth. Cambridge Mass: Harvard University Press. Freeman, D. 1999. The fateful hoaxing of Margaret Mead: A historical analysis of her Samoan research. Boulder Colo: Westview Press. Freeman, D. 2001. “Reflections of a heretic,” The Evolutionist, www.lse.ac.uk/Depts/cpnss/darwin/evo/freeman.htm Gardner, H. 1999. Intelligence reframed: Multiple intelligences for the 21st century. New York: Basic Books. Gazzaniga, M. 1998. The mind’s past. Berkeley: University of California Press. Gazzaniga, M. 1997. Conversations in the cognitive neurosciences. Cambridge: MIT Press. Geertz, C. 1973. The interpretation of cultures. New York: Basic Books. Glover, J. 1999. Humanity: A moral history of the twentieth century. London: Jonathan Cape. Greenspan, R. 1995. “Understanding the genetic construction of behavior,” Scientific American, April 1995. Horvitz, J. 2003, Neurochemical basis of motivation and learning laboratory, www.columbia.edu/~jh299index.html Humphrey, N. 1992, A history of the mind: Evolution and the birth of consciousness, New York: Simon and Schuster. Jensen, E. 1998. Teaching with the brain in mind. Alexandria: Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development. Kimura, D. 2002, “Sex differences in the brain,” Scientific American, June 2002. www.sciam.com/2002/0602mind/0602kimura.html Kitayama, S. & Markus, H. 1994. Emotion and culture: Empirical studies of mutual influence. Washington D.C.: American Psychological Association. Leach, E. 1982. Social anthropology. New York: Oxford University Press. LeDoux, J. 1996. The emotional brain: The mysterious underpinnings of emotional life. New York: Simon & Schuster. Lynch, A. 1996. Thought contagion: The new science of memes. New York: Basic Books. M. Mead, 1928/2001. Coming of age in Samoa: A psychological study of primitive youth for Western Civilization. New York: Perennial Press. Mead, M. 1935/1963. Sex and temperament in three primitive societies. New York: William Morrow. Matsumoto, D. 1994. People: Psychology from a cultural perspective. Prospect Heights: Waveland Press. Mayr, E. 1997. This is biology: The science of the living world. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. Moir, A. & Jessel, D. 1989. Brain sex: The real difference between men and women. New York: Dell Publishing. Nesse, R. & Williams, G. 1994. Why we get sick: The new science of darwinian medicine. New York: Vintage Books. New Scientist, 27 July 2002, “Paranormal beliefs linked to brain chemistry,” www.newscientist.com Pierce, H. 2000. The owner’s manual for the brain: Everyday applications from mind-brain research. Atlanta: Bard Press. Pinker, S. 2002. The blank slate: The modern denial of human nature. New York: Viking. oh there's more!
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-01-2005, 02:27 PM | #1439 | |
The Blobbit
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Quote:
Is there any reason why predetermined behaviour would all be the same? Why would predetermined behaviour be necessarily quick? Can't you be predetermined to 'ponder' to actions?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
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04-01-2005, 02:47 PM | #1440 | |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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Goodness whats with you and lists today.
Quote:
EDIT: this thread has been splitt due to its size. Next post can be found in this other thread
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Earniel : 02-07-2007 at 05:06 AM. |
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