06-11-2003, 11:18 AM | #1421 | ||
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Re: Re: (con't)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-11-2003, 11:35 AM | #1422 | ||
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(GreyMouser - whoops, forgot to finish my thought - here's the rest)
And I think that the concept of people fully and completely repenting, in the Christian sense, after some time in hell, indicates what I think of as the rather slow-on-the-uptake God image - i.e., after the first person in hell really repents, God thinking "Oh hell- um, er, rats! Now why didn't I think of that - that spending some time in the ol' slammer would cause people to repent! But it's too late to change things - I've already set my law saying that hell is eternal - oh silly Me, what a crazy dilemma to have put myself into, considering that I really love people and want them to be saved!!" (I don't mean to be sarcastic - I'm just putting it into exaggerated imagery to make my point - do you see what I mean?) IOW, since the Bible states that God desires people to be saved, then He, being omniscient and omnipotent, would take every conceivable step to make this happen, while still respecting His perfect design of giving a person a free will. Quote:
And unless I've misinterpreted her (which I really hope I have - I certainly have misunderstood many things before!), this is somewhat of the attitude I see in EG's statement: 'And were it the Absolute Truth, and if I die only to find out that I'm not at Fiddler's Green but that I was wrong all along, I'll gladly take the consequences of the third choice: misery, eternal "starvation." '. That's why I asked her what she means by that. (and I hope you don't mean it that way, EG - could you pause and think through what you meant, and if perhaps you should re-evaluate? I also don't know how serious you were - I thought you were joking earlier on, but was certainly wrong - are you joking here?) And what about you, GrayMouser? You have a v. deep understanding of Christian doctrine in many areas. I'm especially glad to see your recent comments on the nature of sin and the goodness of God that were in your analogy, because I think it shows some deeper understandings. Can you understand the idea of fully seeing the nature of your sin but still not repenting? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 11:54 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 02:31 PM | #1423 | ||||
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I hope I haven't offended you, Rian, through this...I am merely explaining my beliefs and why I said what I did.
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06-11-2003, 03:06 PM | #1424 |
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I know this is really random but I have to share this! I went to a CEF, CYIA camp (Cef-child evangelism fellowship, Cyia-christian youth in action) and got to teach kids about Christ. 2 little girls in my group were saved and alot more were saved in other groups. It was an awesome expirience and you have a CYIA camp near you, you should go!!
Sorry, that was really random but I had to tell someone!
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06-11-2003, 03:07 PM | #1425 |
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Re: Re: Re: (con't)
RÃ*an, I just noticed you posted a quote from a book "A case for faith". I'm curious if this is the same author that wrote "A case for christ"? Someone at work gave me the book, since she was deeply religious and knew I was an Atheist. (No, I've never read it. And I'm currently purging old crap out of my house, so it will likely be in a box to a charity soon.)
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06-11-2003, 07:23 PM | #1426 |
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Yes, same author, and quite a good book, IMO. I like his journalistic investigation approach, and his real-life examples are both amazing (maybe not the best word, but the opening real-life example of the James Dixon case, where he was accused of, and even admitted to, shooting a police officer, and it was later proved that the OFFICER was the one that "shot himself" because his illegal pen gun had gone off accidentally!) and applicable. I recommend both of them.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-11-2003, 07:41 PM | #1427 | |||
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And I definitely disagree that you have more freedom and independence as a non-Christian than I do as a Christian. I think Christians have an incredible amount of freedom! (I started to type out an explanation of this, but it got really long, so I think I'll table it.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-11-2003, 07:53 PM | #1428 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-11-2003, 07:58 PM | #1429 |
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Hobbit - I started discussion on your posts, but it was kinda buried in a post dealing with some other things, so here it is again:
Hobbit's post: here, and the one after it My question: Well, how about if I begin with: do you believe that there is an absolute truth about the state of being of things (whether or not we know it)? IOW, that it can be said that it is EITHER true or not true (if we had a way of knowing) that the God of the Bible exists?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-11-2003, 08:06 PM | #1430 | |
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06-11-2003, 09:56 PM | #1431 | |
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I'm not sure that I know what you are talking about. What are you saying is absolute truth?
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06-12-2003, 01:53 AM | #1432 |
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I mean absolute truth as the correct version of the way things really are.
Example - I'm in California, and I think you're on the East Coast (is that right?) Well, for the purposes of this illustration, let's say you're on the East Coast, so you're 3 hours ahead of me. It's 10:45 pm right now in California. Let's say the question is: what is Hobbit doing right now? I say that I think he is probably studying for his last few finals, since he seems a very consciencious chap Someone else might say Hey, I know him pretty well, and I bet he's out at an all-night pizza joint with some friends! Bmilder might say hey, he's my brother, and I bet he's playing some computer game. Someone else might say that they think you're asleep. (I wonder which, if any, is right?) Now these are all different guesses/beliefs, some held more sincerely than others, BUT - there is only 1 absolute truth about what you are doing at this moment in time, and if we had a webcam on you then we would know what that truth is.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-12-2003, 02:14 AM | #1433 | |
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06-12-2003, 02:29 AM | #1434 |
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OK, so YOU'RE the mysterious 4th Mooter! (it shows 4 members on, but only 3 names! )
The webcam was an attempt at humor, and I slipped into inaccuracy. I should have pointed out, as you did, that he could be deceiving us by pretending to be asleep. Or I could have picked a better example, such as "Is Hobbit currently picking his nose?" But by stating "thus the absolute truth would be that he is lying in his bed, deceiving everyone", it appears that you believe that there DOES exists an absolute truth in this matter. Is that right? See, I'm not talking about BELIEFS here. I'm saying that IMO, an absolutely true state of being exists. Whether or not we know what it is, or think we know what it is, is QUITE a different issue.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-12-2003, 02:49 AM | #1435 | |||
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IMO the only 'absolute truth' (see, now by using inverted commas I could even be giving the idea another interpretation - am I using it literally or sarcastically, or as an abstract concept? ) is that no 'truth' is 'absolute' if it cannot be proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be scientifically measurable, if the outcome cannot be accurately predicted and if it it cannot and has not stood the test of time without question / challenge. i.e mathematical theories become absolutes when they are proven to be correct, unchallenge over & over again (take Pythagoras as an example). However, anything to do with human sciences (or what is left to human interpretation) cannot be absolutely true, because by sheer design (flawed or not) the human mind assimilates & constructs realities to our own liking. To say that an absolute true state of being exist would only be correct if the 'state of being' you refer to happens to be dead vs alive, because those 'states' can be scientifically proven. Death of course being the more absolute of the two - you can't be deader than dead, but some of us are in fact more alive than others.
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Don't wet yourself with excitement. Last edited by Baby-K : 06-12-2003 at 03:25 AM. |
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06-12-2003, 02:55 AM | #1436 |
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So there were no truths before the scientific method was developed?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-12-2003, 02:59 AM | #1437 | |
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Also, so there are no truths about things in the past, since they can't be scientifically evaluated in the present? And I think the wording problem illustrates that communication by typing is difficult!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-12-2003, 03:02 AM | #1438 |
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IMO - nope, there were theories and beliefs and possibilities and assumptions - some of which became truths upon investigation & proving the validity thereof.
I am not saying that holding something as true in your own mind is a bad thing, however I do believe that expecting th rest of the world to hold it as true without question is quite arrogant (RÃ*an, I'm not referring to you personally, I'm speaking in a broader sense - referring to any person, institution or group who hold their beliefs as absolutes & expect the rest of the world to follow suit).
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06-12-2003, 03:08 AM | #1439 | |||
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(the previous reply was to your first question)
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06-12-2003, 11:54 AM | #1440 |
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So anything that was not subjected to rigorous scientific testing in the past cannot be considered true? My dog was alive yesterday - I believe it to be true, but I can't scientifically prove it. (He's still alive today, the hairy mutt! He's a great dog)
I think you're still concentrating on how we arrive at the belief of truth here - that's a different matter, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about if there is a true state of what is/was, regardless of if we'll ever know it or not, or if we think we know it but are deceived, or think we know it but it's an incomplete picture. Another example - I say that it is FALSE that my dog, while he and I were in the room with the piano in it yesterday, played my favorite Chopin piece. Would you say that since I can't scientfically disprove it, that I cannot say it's false?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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