06-08-2003, 04:40 PM | #1401 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for the info, Ruinel. Remember, you guys need to make allowances for my advanced age - I sometimes forget things!
I've been thinking about the two issues more, and I can see ways that they're interrelated. But I don't want to combine them unless it's OK with Hobbit, because I think he was next in line. What I'd like to do is quote Hobbit's post and start the discussion on some of the points in it, then start the discussion on Ruinel's question as we're waiting for some responses from Hobbit, who is very busy with school stuff until June 18th. Oh, and as far as my schedule - I'll be at all-day end-of-school parties on Monday, then 2 graduations on Tuesday, so I won't be able to start anything until Wednesday. Then I'll be camping for a week starting on June 20th. It might take some time to cover these topics, with people's summer schedules, but hopefully we'll all stick around, and we can be thinking about them while we're away from the Moot on vacation or whatever.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-08-2003, 05:00 PM | #1402 | |
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Quote:
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06-08-2003, 05:06 PM | #1403 | |
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Well, I suppose I do understand. It makes sense, in a sort of a way, and the more relevant thing is, I don't like it. Or...maybe not the more relevant to you...Okay, well, I understand it. The point, then, is, I guess that's one of the reasons why I don't like Christianity, and why I'm not a Christian. I don't like those choices, and I don't like what all that implies. I like having more options. I think it's silly to be so limiting. However, that does not take away my respect for people who do believe that. What does lessen my respect for them, however, is when people try to convert me, and tell me I can still be saved, etc. I still find that offensive, even if it is part of their belief, because it's not respectful of the beliefs of others. Thank you for answering my questions, Rian and Wayfarer.
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06-08-2003, 07:57 PM | #1404 |
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sure, but unlike other people I know, it doesn't take forever for me to reply
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06-09-2003, 12:49 PM | #1405 |
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Uh-oh, analogy time.
Say you have two separate societies with different legal systems. One society is a monarchy- the Laws are issued in the King's name, the King's peace is on everyone in the land, and the King is a just and benevolent ruler who loves his people dearly and wants the best for them. There is only one penalty for law-breakers in this land- life imprisonment without parole in a very harsh penal colony: a Devil's Island type place with no contact or possibility of parole. The justification for applying such a strict penalty to all levels of crime, from the minor to the most heinous, is that the law-breaker is not being punished for the specifics of the crime, but for his rejection of the King's rule, which is for not only his own good but everyone else's- by even a minor violation the criminal is rejecting the very fabric of the Law, rejecting the King and the good that the King has established. One exception- this society has a perfect lie-detector: if the offender can show between the commission of the crime and his sentencing that he has repented (truly repented, you can't fool the machine) not only his individual crime but especially his rejection of the King's will, he will be totally pardoned. Oh, he may face some sanctions from his neighbors, or voluntarily choose to do community service, but as far as the King's courts go, he is totally free, no matter how terrible the crime. But after the sentencing, there is no hope of rehabilitation- you had your chance, you blew it.
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06-09-2003, 01:11 PM | #1406 |
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Continued;
The second society judges on the nature of the crime- harsher penalties for worse crimes, mitigating or aggravating circumstances taken into account- and has a wide degree of penal institutions, from minimum to maximum. Punishment is certainly part of the system here- even the minimum security prisons are not fun places, while the maximum prisons are just as harsh as the Devil's Island in the first society- but the punishment is adjusted to fit the crime, and the ultimate goal is rehabilitation. This society believes that, given enough time, everybody can be rehabilitated, even for the worst of crimes. For murder for example, you'll get, say, 30 years without parole in Devil's Island, but you won't be cut off- you'll be encouraged to repent and reform, and when you've seved your sentence, you'll get another chance. But, "Do the Crime, Do the Time"- no Royal pardons here; you're being punished for the harm you actually did, though repentence and restitution will be taken into consideration in mitigating your sentence. So, which society is more just? The first one is of course the Christian view of Heaven and Hell (actually make that Protestant; Catholics have Purgatory for minor offenders ); the second is closer to the Buddhist view of karma and the cycle of rebirth- Hell, yes, but not Eternal Damnation- you keep on trying for a thousand ages of sinning and punishment until you learn better. So, any comments? Have I summed up the Christian view fairly?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
06-10-2003, 02:08 AM | #1407 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(oh, he already said that...) I would disagree on 2 points - the same penalty and the no chance of rehab ... but will elaborate tomorrow.... *takes aspirin and Tums* (But must find Hobbit's post first...he posted before GrayM ... groan ...too many Doritos...) (hold on, looking back thru thread....) ok, it's here, and the one right after it; right? Well, how about if I begin with: do you believe that there is an absolute truth about the state of being of things (whether or not we know it)? IOW, that it can be said that it is EITHER true or not true (if we had a way of knowing) that the God of the Bible exists?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-10-2003 at 02:22 AM. |
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06-10-2003, 11:25 AM | #1408 |
Elf Lord
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Relax, Rian, don't bust a blood vessel- you don't have to answer every post.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
06-10-2003, 02:19 PM | #1409 |
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I could probably be accused of spamming, but I'm answering Rian's question just for fun. Even though she probably knows. And she wasn't asking me. I'm just bored, so sue me
No absolute truth! GreyMouser...probably no surprise here but I think the second one is more just. Me stating my opinion for no reason again. Oh well. I had more to say in response to Rian's posts, but they were pages ago and now we're getting on to new stuff, so I'll just wait for Rian to reply again. Eek, pool parties sound scary
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06-11-2003, 12:43 AM | #1410 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:02 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 01:01 AM | #1411 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Hey, I actually did it in only 1 post, plus one little teensy one after where I requoted your original question! Wonders will never cease.... Quote:
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But you're right, too, "just plain wrong" is NOT a valid reason. And you may put those words in my mouth - yes, God defines right and wrong, whether you like it or not - again, we're back to "is there an absolute truth"..... and there, it looks like we differ.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:04 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 01:19 AM | #1412 | ||
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(I'll do my typical 'add numbers for reference...) Quote:
2 - Well, you're overlooking (it appears) that the people break the law (if they're like us!) MANY times DAILY for YEARS before they're thrown into prison, but I think we can overlook that. Also, an objection as to the apparent "same level" of punishment implied by your use of "one penalty" - in Matthew 11 it talks about how it will be "more bearable" for some cities than others on the day of judgement, so I think that implies degrees of punishment. 3 - good points about that it's not ONLY about the effect that evil actions have on people - that it's also a rejection of the King - which means a rejection of the person's right and proper place as a subject - and only in that proper place will the person experience true joy. This is a critically important point, IMO.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:20 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 01:26 AM | #1413 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(con't)
Quote:
6 - Now my objection here turns on your use of "hope" - if you're using it the way I think you are using it, then that implies that there exists a possibility that a person, after he/she has been sentenced, will repent of their rebellion and disobedience and wish to acknowledge the King's proper authority and position and his/her own proper position as a subject in obedience to the Kings' beneficial laws, but will still NOT be let out of prison. IMO, Christian doctrine says that that possibility does NOT exist after a person is in hell. But if you're using 'no hope' in the sense of 'there is 0 probability that the person will want to repent', then I agree.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:27 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 01:40 AM | #1414 | ||||
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(Getting sidetracked: This always got to me in my philosophy class, when we were discussing positivism versus natural law theory. My tendency was to lean toward natural law theory, not because I believe that morals and therefore law is handed down from god, but because I consider morals to be the product of human society, standards, etc, and so I said that in that sense law comes in part from morals. However, everything my prof said about positivism also sounded right. It got quite confusing, and I got rather frustrated and eventually wrote next to the question I was supposed to turn in: So where do morals come from?! His answer: THAT is something philosophers have debated for centuries! Anyway. Back to topic...) Quote:
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2. Agree to disagree Okay, but I find your wording...well, I guess I'm just going to get all whiny and so on, but it's true, it bothers me: (feel free to ignore me if this sounds too whiny/immature/whatever) by saying "whether you like it or not," well, I understand that this is what you believe, but when you say it that way it again would seem that you are pushing your beliefs on me...well, maybe not that extreme, but, well...fne, you just seem so strong in your convictions that it is...gah. I give up, I'll just quote Nietzche: "Convictions are more dangerous enemies to truth than lies." And I'll leave it at that. My objecting to your wording is merely starting up that absolute vs. multiple truth debate again. Oh well. And it's not like I'm offended, it's just that I keep noticing that.
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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06-11-2003, 01:42 AM | #1415 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re absolute truth - EG (and others) - what do you think of these statements:
(in the first sentence, "He" is God (of course! ) and "them", "they" are humans) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:56 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 01:50 AM | #1416 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And re Nietzche - is that true for ALL convictions, or just ones arrived at w/o careful thought and evaluation? I think that is an overgeneralization, don't you?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-11-2003 at 01:51 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 02:10 AM | #1417 | |||
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Quote:
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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06-11-2003, 02:18 AM | #1418 | |
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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06-11-2003, 10:55 AM | #1419 | |
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Re: (con't)
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They're not just saying "Boy, this hurts, I wish I had been good," they realise fully and clearly the heinous nature of their sins, the worst of which is they pain they have caused the Lord by their rejection of His Love, and they do repent- but too late. I thought the idea of the sinner proudly holding to his sin and defying God was just a part of Romantic imagery. ( And I think Lewis was being somewhat of a heretic with his speculations that the damned lose some of their individuality and awareness- I mean, that's the point, isn't it?)
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-11-2003 at 10:56 AM. |
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06-11-2003, 11:09 AM | #1420 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I wanted to discuss why I think there IS absolute truth, before discussing why I think the Bible expresses the absolute truth. IOW, why bother saying that I think the Bible expresses the absolute truth unless I can say that I think absolute truth exists? Since it was your question, are you ready to leave the hell topic, or do you have any more thoughts/questions? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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