03-30-2005, 02:58 PM | #1401 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
Quote:
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
|
03-30-2005, 03:19 PM | #1402 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
As regards "evidence" for god, there are 2 basic kinds of eveidence.
Subjective, and objective. As far as I know, no one has ever stumbled across any objective evidence for god, though I'm sure there's plenty of subjective evidence. The problem with subjective evidence is, it's good enough for some people. But it doesn't apply equally to everyone. Especially someone who bases their view from a skeptical point. Following that train of thought, someone shouldn't be surprised when people discount arguments about morality based on subjective evidence... Objective evidence can be gone back to, and re-tested. By anyone. And they will get the same results. There may be some disagreement over specifics, but it's very rare that there is a revolutionary shift in models. Especially without a major new discovery of new evidence or new techniques of analysis. So based on the best objective evidence, "Modern" humans have been around for at least 100,000 years. Hominids, human-like creatures, for around 2-5 million, depending on how hominid is defined... That doesn't square very well with the accounts in genisis. Come to think of it.... I haven't seen any talking snakes around either... doubtless that was just an allegory however...
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
03-30-2005, 03:21 PM | #1403 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
*(voice from behind) I'm a talking Snake!*
Shut up you *sorry * |
03-30-2005, 03:37 PM | #1404 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Quote:
My point exactly. If there is no moral stricture or claim inherent in atheism or agnosticism, where do moral imperatives arise? And, as is obvious from multiple threads on this forum, agnostics and atheists DO make moral strictures and claims on everything from abstinence-only education to political "oughts". Why?
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
|
03-30-2005, 03:37 PM | #1405 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
*realizes BH's statement quoted above is purely subjective* *agrees with BH's statement: "The problem with subjective evidence is, it's good enough for some people. But it doesn't apply equally to everyone. Especially someone who bases their view from a skeptical point." *decides that the subjective evidence for BH's statement "It was written in your genes" is NOT good enough for her to believe it*
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-30-2005, 03:40 PM | #1406 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
|
|
03-30-2005, 03:42 PM | #1407 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
And I would like to point out that it goes both ways So since I agree with BH's statement, I'll use it and substitute "god NOT existing" for "god" to make a statement of my own. Here goes: As regards "evidence" for god NOT existing, there are 2 basic kinds of evidence. Subjective, and objective. As far as I know, no one has ever stumbled across any objective evidence for god NOT existing, though I'm sure there's plenty of subjective evidence. The problem with subjective evidence is, it's good enough for some people. But it doesn't apply equally to everyone. Especially someone who bases their view from a skeptical point. Following that train of thought, someone shouldn't be surprised when people discount arguments about morality based on subjective evidence...
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-30-2005 at 03:44 PM. |
|
03-30-2005, 03:43 PM | #1408 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
who was it that said in a thread somewhere that they hated having to keep reposting something? was it me? hmm... |
|
03-30-2005, 03:47 PM | #1409 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
If we could zip into the future and take some video of everyday life, I'm sure we'd be talking just like John did in Revelation - "I saw this thing and it was like this". We wouldn't know the name of it, because it hadn't been invented yet. We could just look at it and say it was "like" something we already know.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-30-2005, 03:49 PM | #1410 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
My goodness, two terribly dumb mistakes pointed out today! (Fat Middle pointed out another that no one else had caught, and it was a DOOZY! FM, don't tell, please!!! ) I need some strong tea!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-30-2005, 03:52 PM | #1411 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-30-2005, 03:59 PM | #1412 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
It appears that this is not the case. It appears that you won't consider ANY information I provide from ANY scientist, no matter WHAT their background. So I guess it's just a waste of my time and yours for me to answer questions from you
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-30-2005, 04:09 PM | #1413 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
Quote:
That's one of the reasons why you find so much overlap between liberal, intellectual, and ... shall we say "non-theistic" thinking. If you think there's a big daddy in the sky, why should you be worried about raising global temperatures and flooding hundreds of thousands of miles of coastland causing widespread famine... Everything is going to turn out for the best anyway.... So let's fire up those coal power plants and buy some more SUV's... And have more babies than we can reasonably support while we're at it. There's some very interesting work going on with primate research. Troops of primates often have mores, such as an idea of basic "fairness". It's pretty easy to see how these are linked ot survival of the species, since most primates aren't nearly as complicated in their social structure. That's the problem with "inteligence". It makes things complicated.
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
|
03-30-2005, 04:12 PM | #1414 | |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
Quote:
......*scurries off to joke thread* |
|
03-30-2005, 04:15 PM | #1415 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-30-2005 at 04:17 PM. |
|
03-30-2005, 04:27 PM | #1416 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Darkness
Posts: 1,211
|
Quote:
You can objectively go to a lab, and verify that you do indeed have genetic material. You can also go and do the work and verify that your ancestors have genetic material that is similar in predictable ways. You can also objectively verify genetic similarities between you and other primates. Then you can go and objectively verify that those primates engage in similar behaviors. You can go and objectively verify that primates change their social behaviors in response to their environment. You can go and objectively verify that human interpretations of spirituality have changed. You can go and objectively verify that these changes in spirituality are in response to changes in the environment. You can go and objectively verify the evidence supporting survival of the fittest. You can go and objectively verfiy the evidence supporting social theories stating that individuals who are unable to adjust to changes in society do not adapt well, and do not prosper. You can THEN make a subjective decision based on objective evidence that all the people who were too backwards, fearful, inflexible, irrational, or otherwise incapable of adjusting their spiritual outlook to suit changing environments and social conditions died off, leaving those with the ability to do so to pass this capability on to their offspring, thus writing it in their genes. One can hardly wait for the next several cycles...
__________________
I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
|
03-30-2005, 05:30 PM | #1417 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
|
Quote:
Subject your rationale to the same test you propose for theistic morals and Christian morals. Otherwise, that is as much a faith statement as the theistic origin or Christian origin of morals. And you are right, intelligence does complicate the picture.
__________________
Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
|
03-30-2005, 06:33 PM | #1418 |
Master of Orchestration President Emeritus of Entmoot 2004-2008
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lost in the Opera House
Posts: 9,328
|
nevermind
__________________
ACALEWIA- President of Entmoot hectorberlioz- Vice President of Entmoot Acaly und Hektor fur Presidants fur EntMut fur life! Join the discussion at Entmoot Election 2010. "Stupidissimo!"~Toscanini The Da CINDY Code The Epic Poem Of The Balrog of Entmoot: Here ~NEW! ~ Thinking of summer vacation? AboutNewJersey.com - NJ Travel & Tourism Guide Last edited by hectorberlioz : 03-30-2005 at 06:34 PM. |
03-30-2005, 07:57 PM | #1419 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Or I'll just say I understand what a subjective conclusion is, and apparently you don't! I'll add numbers to your statement for reference purposes: Quote:
2. depends what you mean by "ancestors" 3. sure 4. as well as dissimilar 5. ok 6. fine 7. I disagree! at least if you're saying the changes are solely in response to the environment. 8. (this one always makes me wonder a bit about some evolutionists - they seem to often act like it's some big scientific discovery!) 9. This depends upon the definition of "prosper". I doubt that your definition and mine match. 10. Your conclusion is entirely without merit, IMO. You're apparently making two HUGE (and IMO, erroneous) assumptions - 1. ALL behavior is driven by genes. 2. Behavior of the parents can be passed on to the children, in addition to things like large ears. (this reminds me of pangenes! the long-disproven idea of changes thru use can be passed on to the offspring.) How can things like "backwardness" (or lack thereof), to use a word from your post, be passed on to kids? Really, I don't see how you can possibly claim this. I happen to disagree with your assumptions. They are assumptions, nothing more, and I make different ones based on the objective evidence I see. And you can list all the objective evidence you want, but if your conclusion is subjective, that's the important thing. Your conclusion is definitely subjective and unfounded, IMHO, and I don't agree with it.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 03-30-2005 at 08:11 PM. |
||
03-30-2005, 08:14 PM | #1420 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
(I swear, inky, I feel like uttering the professor's words in the last sentence of the next-to-last paragraph of LWW here so often!! )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[TB?] News Thread | trolls' bane | General Messages | 35 | 06-22-2007 03:33 AM |
Buddy's Thread | Ruinel | General Messages | 57 | 02-11-2004 12:10 AM |
The Entmoot Presidential Debate | Darth Tater | Entmoot Archive | 163 | 12-06-2002 09:44 PM |
The Anti-theist Thread | afro-elf | General Messages | 1123 | 05-09-2002 03:46 PM |
Let Gandalf smite the Abortion thread! | Gilthalion | General Messages | 7 | 08-27-2000 02:52 PM |