06-08-2003, 12:02 AM | #1381 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 215
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I'm not a completely religous Jew, but I'm still kind of religous. I go to services basically when there are Bar or Bat Mitzvahs. I hate how services are on Saturday mornings. My family usually keeps kosher at home, but not always. I do go to Hebrew School and plan to through High School (I'm only in 7th grade right now).
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06-08-2003, 12:04 AM | #1382 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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ah, i quit the second i could - after 7th grade year and after my bar-mitzvah. hated it :P
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06-08-2003, 12:19 AM | #1383 |
Elven Warrior
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I don't really like it either, but I don't really want to quit because 1) my parents really want me to stay in, and 2) because I don't want to leave a few of my friends who ARE going to be alone.
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Chickens at rest will stay at rest unless acted upon by an unbalanced force. Chickens in motion tend to cross the road. |
06-08-2003, 12:26 AM | #1384 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You still believe in God, right, TDL?
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06-08-2003, 01:05 AM | #1385 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, I finally figured what OTOH means! On the other hand, right?
BTW, you Mooters younger than I am that live with your parents, I heard there's some abbreviation for (roughly) "can't talk about that now, Mom's in the room!" What is it? *wonders if they will tell her!* Well, I'll try to wrap up tonite, let's see if I can - I usually end up going on longer than I intended to There's a couple of points from your last post that I'd like to go over. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-08-2003 at 01:07 AM. |
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06-08-2003, 01:34 AM | #1386 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK, here's the last little bit on justice/abhorrence of evil before my summation - a little bit about relative "tolerance" of evil - (I may have said this before, but I think I didn't, and I don't want to waste time searching)
Some people object to God and characterize Him as being rather nit-picky and unrealistic - "well, I'm really a v. good person, and I try really hard, and it's not like I'm a mass-murderer or anything. I should get into heaven! After all, everyone has a bad day sometimes!" But if you think it through, I think that it will make sense that a perfectly holy God is RIGHT to consider ALL offenses as morally offensive, and God would be less than God if He didn't think that way. I'll try to explain in the rest of the post. I'm glad to see, EG, that you see that "evil" acts are harmful and "wrong" - both to society (which is made up of individuals), and to individuals. I think it's a pretty safe guess that everyone on Entmoot would agree that the terrible acts mentioned in the pedophile scenario are harmful and wrong. However, I would also guess that not everyone agrees on some of the "minor" offenses mentioned in the Bible, such as lying or gossip or coveting (wanting things that someone else has in a bad way, like making you dissatisfied with what you have and being obsessed with the thing you don't have and angry with the person that does have it, etc.) And I think that the people that you would consider more "good" are the ones that would object to some of these "lesser" offenses. And outside of the Moot, there are certainly people that you would consider more "bad" than you are that would not have problems with things that you would definitely consider wrong, wouldn't you agree? (after all, there are organizations like NAMBLA that have information and tips on how to find young kids for abusing, altho I doubt if they would use that word.) So I think that:
And if you take this to its logical conclusion, you can see that God, who is perfectly good, is then perfectly RIGHT to be morally offended by ANY wrong behavior. It would be WRONG if God was NOT morally offended by all wrong behavior, just as you can see that it's WRONG for a pedophile to not only DO an evil act, but to consider an evil act "ok" to do!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-08-2003 at 01:37 AM. |
06-08-2003, 01:46 AM | #1387 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Here it is!! Finally!!
And here it is, my summary post on the subject of hell! (finally!)
1. There exists TRUTH - IOW, 2 (or more) contradictory statements cannot both (or all) be TRUE. So different religious beliefs that contain contradictory statements about god/gods cannot all be true. There must be a TRUE statement of what actually exists in reality. Whether or not you believe you can discover what this truth is, is another question - but there IS a TRUE state of things. 2. It is TRUE, IMO, that the God of the Bible exists (based upon various reasons, which don't really matter in this discussion, since I'm explaining Christian doctrine, not explaining why I, personally, believe it to be true), and the Bible contains truths of and about God (not all of them, obviously - not enough room! - but those that are applicable to us). 3. God is perfectly holy, among other things, and all sin is rightly an abhorrence to Him (just as we, made in His image, rightly abhor heinous crimes. Where we differ is with the "smaller" stuff, but we are not perfectly holy, either, so it's understandable. The more "good" a person is, the more they realize that the "smaller" stuff is wrong, too). 4. God created us with free will, and knew in advance that that meant the POSSIBILITY of sin. And because He is perfectly holy, there is rightly a penalty for sin. But because He is perfectly fair and just, he planned ahead of time how we could be saved from paying the penalty of our sin through what Jesus did on the cross - substitutionary atonement. The best picture for this is a civil court, where there is a financial amount that must be paid for a "sin" - we are unable to pay our "debt" for our sin; Jesus, however, IS able, and DID. However, we can tell the judge that we don't want Him to pay for us (because this entails acknowledging the truth, among other things, that Jesus is rightfully Lord), or we can tell the judge (and Him) that we accept with gratitude His payment for us. 5. God declares in the Bible that it is His desire that EVERYONE be "saved" (this means made righteous before God through Jesus' paying the penalty for our sins). God has provided the "free gift" of salvation for those that choose to take it. God is just, and He declares in the Bible that there is sufficient evidence for everyone to choose to be saved. There are examples of people BEFORE THE TIME OF JESUS that are declared saved by God because of their faith, so a person doesn't even have to have heard the Bible to be saved. All that IS definitely said is that (a) the ONLY way of salvation is through Jesus, and (b) salvation is by FAITH. 6. Therefore, it is a person's free-will choice to "go to hell". God will NOT drag them kicking and screaming into heaven, which is a REAL place where God rightly and properly is revealed to reign and to be sovereign Lord of all, and a place that people that deny the gift of salvation would NOT want to be in. God will not make a “false reality” for people that is false to the true nature of the universe and where sin is not acknowledged to be wrong. The only other place to be in is hell. And that's my summary. It's a very serious topic, and that's why I've gone to a lot of time and work to explain what I believe to be the Christian doctrine on the issue, because I think what you originally posted on hell reflected some erroneous ideas about Christian doctrine. I'll provide the Bible references if you would like me to. Thoughts? Comments? Thanks for hanging in there with me thru some VERY long posts and a lot more time than I would have wished - I really appreciate it, and it's well worth it to me because it looks like you're really thinking through what I've said. We may end up disagreeing, but we've had some honest discussion on the subject, and that makes it worth it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-08-2003 at 03:14 AM. |
06-08-2003, 02:36 AM | #1388 | ||||
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Anyway, I think you still can use that, but with the addition, "good for society as a whole and the individuals that make up said society." So everyone has to have the same opportunities. Because that is Justice, and Justice is important. (But then there's the question of what defines Justice...) Not morals, though they may perhaps be connected. But I don't think "just plain wrong" is a reason. Why is it wrong? What makes it wrong? What is wrong, and who gets to define wrong? I'm guessing (though NOT putting words in your mouth) that you'll say something along the lines of "God defines right and wrong" or "it's in the Bible." (But less simplified. Of course. ) However, that doesn't work for a lot of people. I think we need a better explanation, especially in my belief system, because I'm not saying anyone's wrong about their religion. Sure, I certainly say which ones I like better, but that's just me. Right. I'm not getting anywhere. But I'm going to think about it, and see if I can come up with something besides "just plain wrong." Um. Quote:
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06-08-2003, 03:17 AM | #1389 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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ps - EG's original question was "how can God be considered loving, etc, when to not accept God is to go to Hell?"
So my answer is that people going to hell is NOT a comment on God's lovingkindness! It's a reflection of a FREE-WILL choice on that person's part, and the fact that a true state of things exists. Now it DOES show God's lovingkindness in that He provided a way to SAVE people from hell, at a great cost to Himself. But he does not take away a person's free will and force them to go to heaven or hell - the choice is with each individual person.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-08-2003 at 03:19 AM. |
06-08-2003, 03:22 AM | #1390 | ||||
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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(1) If one is morally offended by certain behaviors/actions of someone within their own society, which society generally finds to be abhorrent, then I think they have every right to think that. The relativaty of morals is more along the lines of being generally accepted in a society than individual morals, so that society works. So, to be morally offended by someone who, say, murdered their child, is perfectly reasonable. (2) Yes, some individuals in our society could be considered worse people than I consider myself to be. And these people might not find their actions to be wrong. (3) Yes, that makes perfect sense. Then again so does everything else you've said, but I couldn't resist throwing in my views Quote:
Thanks for sharing your views!
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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06-08-2003, 03:32 AM | #1391 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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I've still a lot more to write in response! So many thoughts, so little time. However, I'll just reply to this and then go to sleep and continue tomorrow, 'cause I'm getting sleepy
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I think I'm pretty much satisfied with your answer, though. I can see that you don't have a problem it--you don't it the same way I do, and I can understand that. There was a second question, if ANYONE wants to try to answer it, Why is Christianity better, and more right, than any other religion? I found something someone said on this, a great quote, that I'll post as soon as I can find it. But I'd love an answer to that!
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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06-08-2003, 10:31 AM | #1392 | |
The Insufferable
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,333
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"Come to me, and join me for eternity- this is heaven. Reject me, and be seperated from me for eternity- this is hell. All that is Good comes from me, and in my love I will give to you freely, but there is no good thing apart from me, and apart from me is everlasting suffering. Now choose." *typed during a church service. ]:-)
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06-08-2003, 10:52 AM | #1393 |
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R*an, just checking again to see if you ever got to my question. I didn't see it though. Do you need me to post it again? Or will you be able to find it in all this hot air.
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06-08-2003, 10:55 AM | #1394 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-08-2003, 11:00 AM | #1395 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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06-08-2003, 11:08 AM | #1396 |
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My question was in regards to the pain and suffering that is allowed to exist on Earth by the Christian god. Especially, the pain and suffering that happens to innocent children.
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06-08-2003, 11:44 AM | #1397 |
Sapling
Join Date: Jun 2003
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This is a very large thread. Not good for someone trying to break the habit of not reading the entire thing . Anyhoo, I'm an atheist, I don't believe in any kind of supernatural spirit and I think once you die, you're gone and you cease to exist. I'm interested in pagan religions as a subject but I can't bring myself to swallow any of it, much less Christianity. Though I have given it more than a shot, for eight years I had to go to a private Catholic school, courtesy of my mother. Now I go to public, woohoo!
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heehee....hi....sleep deprived....must get off computer.... *A terrible force of mind-numbing evil compels you to copy/paste this link into your browser and go on the site* http://jthm.conforums2.com I would put some of my favorite quotes here, but at the moment I'm indisposed. Just think Lestat de Lioncourt, Winston Churchill and my own depraved mind. |
06-08-2003, 12:23 PM | #1398 | |
The Insufferable
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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06-08-2003, 01:56 PM | #1399 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Sorry, Ru, I had forgotten what your question was for sure - 10 pages of discussions on hell made me forget! I thought it was either reasons behind believing, or the pain issue, but didn't remember for sure.
Wayfarer, if you can stick around, I'd be willing to discuss both topics at once - what do you think? I'd like to start Hobbit's first, because he's waited the longest, but I think that given the nature of this thread (there's time gaps between responses) perhaps we can handle 2?? Hobbit, would you like to discuss only yours at this point, or shall we add in the pain question, too? I'd like to hear your opinion, since you've waited so long (I can't help that I'm slow, but at least I'm thorough! ) I'll definitely get to your question, Ru, either way (also it was GreyM's question).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
06-08-2003, 02:47 PM | #1400 | ||
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Here is my original question, R*an. I've also included my opinion prior to it, in case you needed that as well.
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