What would happen if America practiced Isolationism?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Spock
... We don't owe anyone and they don't appreciate our generosity nor our way of life.

I would not have our 'way of life' imposed on others. Just as I would not want their way of life imposed on us. The only part of our way of life I would impose would be human rights for all.

[Spock]

..mmm that's almost non-sequitor.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Ruinel
*shows badge* up against the wall, sister.

ON TOPIC:
It seems that the US is damned if they do and damned if they don't. Well, I'd prefer my taxes to be used to help ourselves, instead of other countries. So many negative comments are said about the US 'involvement' across the globe that it just makes me wonder why we don't just turn our backs when we're asked for help.

Well, mostly your taxes are not used to help other countries; check this site to show how the U.S. gives less foreign aid as a percentage of GNP then any other industrialised country (scroll down to chart)

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Even with all that is going on in Iraq now, I feel the Iraqi people are better off than when they were ruled by Sadam Hussain. (Though I did not and do not support this war.) In time, they'll develop a fair and free government (hopefully) for their people as they work through the pains of change. But in the end, I can lay a bet that they'll curse us for all our help and aid, just as the world does now.

Wouldn't the point be what the Iraqi people feel? Though I'm sure that a majority agree with you- certainly among the Kurds and Shiites; that's already 80%.

Most of the world does not curse the U.S ; in fact up until the Iraq invasion most countries had a very strongly favourable impression of the U.S., and I'm sure they will again after this blows over.

It is a bit of a Catch-22, though- so many people around the world, particularly among the educated, hold America to higher standards than they do other countries, emphatically including their own.

Why? Because they believe in you; they put their faith in the ideals of freedom and justice that America holds up. When (rightly or wrongly) they feel America has let them down, they react much more strongly than they would to anyone else- it's not realpolitik; it's more of a lover betrayed.

I know our history, that we've come to aid other countries (example: WWII) at our own expense (the lives of our people and our tax dollars). And even that is turned against us. With this in mind, I'd seriously like to see my country become more isolationist, and let the world fend for itself. We owe them nothing.

If you know your history, you'll know that your country entered the war when it was attacked (Remember Pearl Harbor!) and was only in a state of war with Germany because Hitler declared war first (though as JD has noted elsewhere, Roosevelt did everything he could to aid Britain and provoke Hitler- the point is that he had to do that clandestinely because he couldn't have carried the case for war to the American people.)

A lot of anti-Americanism is simply resentment of the Top Dog-
Many people in Europe cheered when the British had their ears pinned back by a bunch of ragtag colonials in the American Revolution, and later in the Boer War.

Same thing when the Sun King was checked by the lowly Dutch.

Hey, I always cheer against the Yankees and Real Madrid, and I'm sure I'd hate Man United if my family wasn't from there

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Well, mostly your taxes are not used to help other countries; check this site to show how the U.S. gives less foreign aid as a percentage of GNP then any other industrialised country (scroll down to chart)

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

This only addresses one issue, that of aid for Official Development Assistance. And the US seems to lead in total amout given with $12,900MIL, as compared to the next highest $9,220MIL (Japan). Canada being much farther behind other countries at $2,013MIL. Comparing countries using their GNP isn't exactly fair.


Furthermore, this is only one kind of aid provided. The US uses other money to help countries in other ways. Many times we send our military to help out, the money spent does not come out of the ODA money, but still comes out of my taxes.

Wouldn't the point be what the Iraqi people feel? Though I'm sure that a majority agree with you- certainly among the Kurds and Shiites; that's already 80%.

In time, we'll be cursed for our help. Wait and see.

Most of the world does not curse the U.S ; in fact up until the Iraq invasion most countries had a very strongly favourable impression of the U.S., and I'm sure they will again after this blows over.

Only time will tell. But I'd lay money on a bet that those opinions will turn against us. Look at what is posted at the Moot? And this is only a very small population of people around the world.

It is a bit of a Catch-22, though- so many people around the world, particularly among the educated, hold America to higher standards than they do other countries, emphatically including their own.

Why? Because they believe in you; they put their faith in the ideals of freedom and justice that America holds up. When (rightly or wrongly) they feel America has let them down, they react much more strongly than they would to anyone else- it's not realpolitik; it's more of a lover betrayed.

o.O
very odd

If you know your history, you'll know that your country entered the war when it was attacked (Remember Pearl Harbor!) and was only in a state of war with Germany because Hitler declared war first (though as JD has noted elsewhere, Roosevelt did everything he could to aid Britain and provoke Hitler- the point is that he had to do that clandestinely because he couldn't have carried the case for war to the American people.)

I don't want to rehash this, but tell that to the US servicemen who died in Europe defending a land that was not their own.

A lot of anti-Americanism is simply resentment of the Top Dog-

also... odd.
O.o

[GrayMouser]

This only addresses one issue, that of aid for Official Development Assistance. And the US seems to lead in total amout given with $12,900MIL, as compared to the next highest $9,220MIL (Japan). Canada being much farther behind other countries at $2,013MIL. Comparing countries using their GNP isn't exactly fair.

The point I was making was per capita . The U.S. gives much more than Canada because it is much bigger than Canada,
but it gives less per person. America is ten times larger than Canada, but contributes much less than ten times the aid.

Though you're right about America carrying more than its fair share of our common defence.

Only time will tell. But I'd lay money on a bet that those opinions will turn against us. Look at what is posted at the Moot? And this is only a very small population of people around the world.

Naw, it'll just take till President Clark in '04 or at most President Hillary in '08 before everybody starts lovin' you again.

Here's an opinion poll that showed that pre-war, most Europeans had a favourable view of the U.S. , and the plunge has been almost entirely attributable to the Bush Administration's policies.
(In another report they say that opinions are already starting to climb back up.)

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=175

Ummm...,when you say odd, are you saying that it's odd that's the way it is, or that what I'm saying is odd?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Naw, it'll just take till President Clark in '04 or at most President Hillary in '08 before everybody starts lovin' you again.

I hope Hilary never becomes president - she's such a fake. I don't know about CVlark - other than his many jobs as being a talking head on CNN.

Here's an opinion poll that showed that pre-war, most Europeans had a favourable view of the U.S. , and the plunge has been almost entirely attributable to the Bush Administration's policies.
(In another report they say that opinions are already starting to climb back up.)
http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=175

The problem isn't the Bush administration as much as Europe and the world was used to president doing everything they wanted. It doesn't work that way though. Clinton played the world opinion polls - if they were negative - he changed his ideas. He started going after bin Ladin - the world was outraged - he then backed down and did not enter Afganistan after our embassies and USS Cole were bombed which should have been enough to declare war against any country. Looking back on 9/11 - obviously Clinton should NOT have listened to world opinion. Clinton was a poll follower.

By the way - that poll is dated March 18, 2003 - during the war - right after the whole thing with the UN. We are aware they disagreed with us - but sometimes the US has to do things that are in OUR best interests too. The world can not expect us to only do what THEY want.

[GrayMouser]

The problem isn't the Bush administration as much as Europe and the world was used to president doing everything they wanted. It doesn't work that way though. Clinton played the world opinion polls - if they were negative - he changed his ideas. He started going after bin Ladin - the world was outraged - he then backed down and did not enter Afganistan after our embassies and USS Cole were bombed which should have been enough to declare war against any country. Looking back on 9/11 - obviously Clinton should NOT have listened to world opinion. Clinton was a poll follower.

From CNN. "Reactions from around the world on US Missile strikes in Afghanistan and Sudan" (1998)

"The German government supports all measures which help to fight this scourge of the international community. This is particularly the case for the attacks the U.S. carried out yesterday on targets in Afghanistan and Sudan."

German Chancellor Helmut Kohl

"Terrorists are now responsible for the spiral of violence and it is important to fight terrorism," he said. "In that respect we understand the actions of the United States at the same time as we deplore the loss of human life."

Norwegian Foreign Minister Knut Vollebaek

"We must give determined and firm responses against terrorists there where they strike. Taking it from there, one can understand that great nations hit in the flesh cannot remain impervious."

French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin

[GrayMouser]

Though I share your feelings about Hilary

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
From CNN. "Reactions from around the world on US Missile strikes in Afghanistan and Sudan" (1998)

That was in the beginning - but then when it was felt the US had hit a baby food manufacturer (ironicly the signs were in English) - the world changed it's tune and Clinton backed down instead of going forward. People also started screaming about the sovereign rights of the countries bin Ladin was hiding in.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
The point I was making was per capita . The U.S. gives much more than Canada because it is much bigger than Canada, but it gives less per person. America is ten times larger than Canada, but contributes much less than ten times the aid.

Though you're right about America carrying more than its fair share of our common defence.

Canada's taxes on individuals is much higher than the US. And the way the taxes are used is differently as well. I would rather not pay the same taxes as Canada if it meant we gave more money to other countries as aid.

Ummm...,when you say odd, are you saying that it's odd that's the way it is, or that what I'm saying is odd?

Odd that people think that way.