Israel, Gaza, and the Middle East Conflict

[Spock]

"It is the brain, the little gray cells on which one must rely. Once must seek the truth within-not without"
....H.P. .......

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

But we are programed to notice stuff like that so the illusion of race persists.

We are programmed by society you mean right, not our genes, because growing up I never noticed race.

Jamaica is very multi-cultural, I even have blond haired blue eyed cousins, my family is typically very mixed.

Jamaica's motto is "Out of many, one people," and my fahter was very patriatic. He and the schools I went to drilled that into me, and I lived it, it was in me. I had asian (alot of chinese in jamaica man, not so many japanese) friends and I could remember that I never noticed them as chinese or even white friends.

But that being said, I am not saying this is how the average jamaican lived or saw things; I had a serious issue with the way I approached the world and it has created alot of problems for me all my life. Especially when you deal with people who don't see things the way you do, like hear in the US. Wiether white, other black people or spanish people, very week and fearful behavior; I won't ever understand it...well not true, I now undrstand it's because of fear and the way I found that out is by asking myself why I don't feel that way, the answer was I don't fear them, I still only see jamaicans. You would be amazed how many answers you could get if you just asked yourself in that way.

I remember my friends saying that I think I am white, (in my neighborhood some of my closest friends were born in america and lived in jamaica as well-just my luck-but I swear it was all for a reason, my life has been very strange) and I didn't get that attitude then but now I see, it was the way I approached other people, treating those as brothers, that society did not see as my brothers; I just saw jamaicans man, call me naive, I have been called that before.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

We are programmed by society you mean right, not our genes, because growing up I never noticed race.

Society handles the psychological/social programming. But our genes certainly do make us keenly aware of differences. Thats why we tend to divide into tribes of all kind and sizes and throw nuts at each other. Different can mean danger so its engrained in us to use visual cues to be wary of each other. These are easy to override though once we learn the value of someone who seems different and we make that human (animal) bond with them. Then, as you say, the differences evaporate and they can become part of the tribe. But the insidious part is the psycho/social aspect which is reinforced by others in the tribe. And thats why we hear age old stereotypes like asians cant drive or all blacks are criminals.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I would say there is no illusion of race at all. I say that people get used to each other and or they don't, and on a whole scale of levels.

Im afraid yer gonna need to translate that into English. Or is that how you people talk?

[The Telcontarion]

However, we only have tribes because of manipulation, I don't believe it is a natural accurance.

[brownjenkins]

Race is natural, much like the "herd instinct" among animals. You can see it in our closest relatives, the apes and monkeys.

For example, many of the issues that jews have faced over the centuries are in part a result of the fact that they have always choosen to exist as their own "tribe" within larger groups. Even when they lived within other nations, they often only married and socialized amongst their own "race", creating a natural barrier between themselves and the people around them.

And another animalistic trait we still retain is the fear of those we don't know well. You see this on the arab side as well, where a shia might see a sunni as an enemy, until a jew was put into the picture. How far a certain group is from your own is proportional to the fear.

The only real solution is getting to know one another, much like how the US became a nation of so many different cultures. But that takes both time and desire.

[Butterbeer]

so... you are advocating a mass coast to coast, week-long orgy?

let me know ...

[Spock]

Yikes!

[BeardofPants]

Gay sex with George W Bush doesn't even bear thinking about. Ugh.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

so... you are advocating a mass coast to coast, week-long orgy?

let me know ...

More sex is always a good place to start.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Im afraid yer gonna need to translate that into English. Or is that how you people talk?

I'm saying that if there is an illusion, it's the illusion that race is an illusion.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I'm saying that if there is an illusion, it's the illusion that race is an illusion.

So you think there is some fundamental difference between human beings (i.e. a child born in certain parts of arabia is going to be naturally more violent as a result of genetics)?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

So you think there is some fundamental difference between human beings (i.e. a child born in certain parts of arabia is going to be naturally more violent as a result of genetics)?

No. I did not say that...

EDIT: Ok, I have to put it a different way.

An arab boy born to a violent father, and lets say for the sake of it that he might be a terrorist-is NOT genetically a violent or terrorist person. But perhaps he has a "strong blood" in him: his father has strong genes or whatever...

So let's say that there is a tribe who all have this "strong gene", and all their children do too. They live in harder conditions than most...

We can say "there is nobody quite like the _____ up north, their race is a strong race."

[Insidious Rex]

Hector... Once again... there is more genetic variation WITHIN "races" then BETWEEN them. Now if this doesnt make it clear that biological race is an illusion I dont know what else will.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

No. I did not say that...

EDIT: Ok, I have to put it a different way.

An arab boy born to a violent father, and lets say for the sake of it that he might be a terrorist-is NOT genetically a violent or terrorist person. But perhaps he has a "strong blood" in him: his father has strong genes or whatever...

So let's say that there is a tribe who all have this "strong gene", and all their children do too. They live in harder conditions than most...

We can say "there is nobody quite like the _____ up north, their race is a strong race."

I'd say it's all environment. Take a jewish child away at birth and have them grow up in Palestine impoverished for their entire lives while friends and relatives die regularly all around them and they'd be just as likely to turn to violence as the only method that might bring change. Or maybe even just a release from a life of hell.

It's the genetics of society. You take on the characteristics of the society you mature in.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Hector... Once again... there is more genetic variation WITHIN "races" then BETWEEN them. Now if this doesnt make it clear that biological race is an illusion I dont know what else will.

As you atheists love to say "it's all in the mind, my boy"....even the illusion that there is an illusion

*puts hands up* I surrender, I no longer want to talk about this subject.

But what about this:

What would happen if Iraq was divided into three sections?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

I'd say it's all environment. Take a jewish child away at birth and have them grow up in Palestine impoverished for their entire lives while friends and relatives die regularly all around them and they'd be just as likely to turn to violence as the only method that might bring change. Or maybe even just a release from a life of hell.

It's the genetics of society. You take on the characteristics of the society you mature in.

Ok, but did you get my point about the "strong race up north?" In that way there is "race".

[Spock]

you do realize that all this is leading back to the phraseology of Archie Bunker; i.e. whops, chinks, spics, coons, honkies, kikes, japs, jerries, etc., etc,

The more we eliminate the more we distinguish in other ways it seems.

Perhaps one day there will be "the Human Fund" but until then, only George Costanza knows it exists.

Lastly, we're way, way, far away from a Federation of Planets.

[Lief Erikson]

On a rather different subject:

Israel is just breaking this cease-fire truce with Hezbollah again and again. I haven't seen Hezbollah take any military action against Israel since the beginning of the truce, but I have hardly seen a day go by in which Israel doesn't do something to break it.

They've shot down several Hezbollah fighters who hadn't done anything to them. They launched a raid deep into southern Lebanon that the UN said was a ceasefire violation. Today they fired rockets into a Lebanese village and captured two residents.

And today they claimed, "there's an explosive situation on the ground in Lebanon! The cease-fire is running out of time!" Israel's own actions are the reason time is running out fast! How long is Hezbollah likely to refrain from retaliating against Israel's repeated attacks?

[Lief Erikson]

No offense anyone, but my thinking is that this is getting a bit off-topic.