Capturing Tolkien's Vision vs. A Literal Interpretation

[BeardofPants]

The fading of the elves, and of the third age:
Pj has them turning up at helms deep to fight against Saruman's hoard. Is this the mark of a race whose fëa is fading? Whose time was drawing to a close? Not to mention the fact that it completely mucks up the Last Alliance. In Tolkien's world, the elves are estranged from the world of men: if Men are to overthrow Sauron, then they have no one to turn to except themselves. PJ has completely shot this theme to pieces.

Reduction of the role of hobbits, and how even the smallest can come through:
Pj has taken out the scouring which would have shown how the hobbits had come in a full circle from a primarily internallly turned race, to one that was forced to fight for the freedom of the shire. No longer could the hobbits rely on the rangers fending for them, or for Gandalf to turn up at some opportune time. In PJ's world, it seems we will not get to see the maturation of the hobbits as a people. However, I reserve my judgement until I've seen the last insallment. The POV on the movie shifts from the hobbits to that of Aragorn (primarily.)

The elvish concern with preserving their realms:
PJ gives us turbo-Galadriel, a fiercesome queen who seems more concerned with terrifying the be-jeezus out of everyone and stealing the ring, than preserving her people, and her realm. Elrond seems more concerned with xenophobia towards an inferior Aragorn, and telling off his daughter to worry about *his* realm. Again this hearkens to my point about their "fading"; rather than being geographically, and socially isolated from 'man-kind' they're gallivanting around the neighbourhood kicking elvish butt. So much for the inwardly turned aspect of the elves. There is no real allusion to the timelessness of Elrond's realm. A cursary mention is made of the lack of time passed in Lothlorien.

What it means to be a hero:
Admittedly, we're still waiting for the third installment, so I can't really give an absolute fail to PJ on this theme, however, thus far he hasn't succeeded too well. Frodo has turned into a mouse who likes to have occasional bouts of diarrhoaea/constipation, and random episodes of falling over. Tolkien's Frodo was scared at every turn, but displayed great courage in overcoming his fear. PJ's Frodo was just plain scared, and was oftentimes cowering behind some random member of the fellowship. Aragorn has turned into a reluctant king-to-be, easily caught off-guard by an elven hussy. The phrase, "All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost?", no longer makes sense, because movie-Aragorn is clearly lost, and has no sense of self-worth in regards to either his love for Arwen, or his kingdom. Also, both his and Frodo's characters are completely bungled at the end of fellowship: Tolkien's more kingly Aragorn would never had left Frodo's side had he known Frodo's intentions to desert.

Environmental themes:
Pj has given a cursary examination of this particular theme to his credit: however, he fails to look beyond Saruman's obvious contribution. The theme is a lot more complicated than the obvious pulling down trees and making evil machines with them: it ties in with that whole thing with the fading of the third age.

[BeardofPants]

The power of friendship:
The conversion of Pippin and Merry into two giddly little midgets (read: comic), and the loss of the Conspiracy means that their role in the fellowship makes no sense. Why are they there? Other than to provide light relief? "I think Elrond, that in this matter it would be well to trust rather to their friendship than to great wisdom" Unfortunately their roles have been trivialised to the point that their parts within the fellowship seem irrelevant. How can we even rely on their supposed great friendship with Frodo when their introduction into the journey seems like an accident? When there has been no build up of a relationship with Frodo during the introductory segments of the Fellowship of the Ring? However, I do feel that PJ did a pretty good job with the relationship of Sam and Frodo, offset with Gollum (who was amazing. PJ does have some redeeming features occasionally.)

Overcoming racial prejudice, and casting aside ancient history:
The mangling of Gimli and Legolas' friendship is to me, one of the most disappointing things that PJ bungled. There is no sense of reparation between these two characters in Fellowship: such that there is a definate absense of the burgening of a new friendship. What we do get is a rather comfusing competition between them at Helm's Deep over how many kills they managed to get, which I guess is the culmination of their friendship. PJ also failed to really bring across how bitter the hatred was between these two races. We also have Elrond being openly scornful against 'man-kind', which is ludicrous given that he is half-elven!

The Istari, and the theme of wisdom:
I ask, would Tolkien's Gandalf have managed to attract the scorn of a mere elf (Elrond)? Would he have resorted to Sumo Wrestling with Saruman? Would he have stupidly told Saruman where the ring was? In Tolkien's world, the role of the Istari is clear: they are emissaries sent directly from the Undying Lands to work against Sauron (by guiding the free peoples of Middle Earth.) Their wisdom, and and their knowledge are imcomparable with the other races in middle earth. And yet: we have Elrond openly scorning against Gandalf. How can Gandalf even hope to rouse the peoples of Middle Earth against Sauron, when he can't even get Elrond to trust him?!

The breaking of the fellowship:
Perhaps one of the more important themes of the book was reduced to mere battles, blood, and gore. The boss-fight with Lurtz was laughable, and faintly reminescent of Monty Python ("'tis only a scratch!") PJ managed to completely muddy the waters with this one. What we get is an extended scene of a battle. There is no examination of why the fellowship was doomed (which is a whole other theme which I can't be bothered getting into: the theme of fate, the doom of the elves et al, the prophecies of Illuvater, etc) to fail. Nada. We get Lurtz instead. Yippee. Frodo's consideration for the other members of the fellowship is lost because they already know about his departure, and aid him in it! And Aragorn's loyalty to Frodo is cut, with him instead chosing to let him go alone.

Finding hope when all seems lost:
Faramir was supposed to be a ray of light in a dark place. In the movie, he is transformed into an evil bastard who takes Frodo captive. Bree: again was turned into something dark and scary.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Hurrah! Reinforcements!

[BeardofPants]

So did I leave anything out?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Not that I can think of. But then, I am halfwitted.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
The fading of the elves, and of the third age:
Pj has them turning up at helms deep to fight against Saruman's hoard. Is this the mark of a race whose fëa is fading? Whose time was drawing to a close? Not to mention the fact that it completely mucks up the Last Alliance. In Tolkien's world, the elves are estranged from the world of men: if Men are to overthrow Sauron, then they have no one to turn to except themselves. PJ has completely shot this theme to pieces.

Baloney. The fading of the elves has been a CLEAR theme in the theatrical and extended DVD releases. I've pointed the evidence of this out in an earlier post. If you'd like I could repeat it again.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Reduction of the role of hobbits, and how even the smallest can come through.

You obviously haven't been watching the same films that I have. That is a central theme of PJ's.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
The elvish concern with preserving their realms:
PJ gives us turbo-Galadriel, a fiercesome queen who seems more concerned with terrifying the be-jeezus out of everyone and stealing the ring, than preserving her people, and her realm.

If you are going to argue this point, you might want to reread Tolkien's version first since PJ mirrored it to a large extent.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
What it means to be a hero:
Admittedly, we're still waiting for the third installment, so I can't really give an absolute fail to PJ on this theme, however, thus far he hasn't succeeded too well. Frodo has turned into a mouse who likes to have occasional bouts of diarrhoaea/constipation, and random episodes of falling over. Tolkien's Frodo was scared at every turn, but displayed great courage in overcoming his fear.

So has PJ's Frodo.

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Environmental themes:
Pj has given a cursary examination of this particular theme to his credit.

Thank you for acknowledging PJ's efforts to address this theme on film.

More later.

[Melko Belcha]

I fully agree with BeardofPants. I think their is enuff examples in this thread of why PJ did not capture Tolkien's vision. Sorry if you disagree BB, but after reading many of these posts I feel even more now that PJ did not capture Tolkien's vision then I did before this debate started. Just except that people don't have the same opinion then you, I except your opinion even if I don't agree with it.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
1) Baloney. The fading of the elves has been a CLEAR theme in the theatrical and extended DVD releases. I've pointed the evidence of this out in an earlier post. If you'd like I could repeat it again.

2)You obviously haven't been watching the same films that I have. That is a central theme of PJ's.

3)If you are going to argue this point, you might want to reread Tolkien's version first since PJ mirrored it to a large extent.

4)So has PJ's Frodo.

5)Thank you for acknowledging PJ's efforts to address this theme on film.

More later.

1)Yes, indeed. It WAS a clear theme, quite well done indeed. But then Jigglypuff had to lead a force of Elves to the aid of Rohan.

2)Really? Care to show how?

3) I'm not quite sure what BoP was saying, so I don't really know how to respond. Somewhat OT, but I will quote Tolkien's description of her at the "transformation".

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

Ring? Ring? What Ring? I didn't see a ring.
Somehow, I don't think "great light" meant the dark, greenish tint.
Didn't seem to me to be tall beyond measurement. And as for beautiful beyond enduring...
Terrible and worshipful were fairly well portrayed, in and of themselves. But these terms could be used to describe something that wasn't rather monstrous in appearance, and judging from previous description, I think this is what was meant.
I didn't notice her laughing in the first place, let alone again...
4) EJW does always seem to be hiding behind other members of the Fellowship. And he certainly didn't come off as the same perservering Hobbit of undying will in the movie as he did in the book, at least to me.
5)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
More later.

When you have some more time, could you please address/refute some of my points with examples? In particular: could you expand on PJ's version of the elves fading, How the hobbits come through, how PJ showed the preservation of the Elvish realms, How heroism was portrayed through Frodo et al, and anything else you'd like to bring up? So far you have refuted my points with nothing but "nonsense, blah, blah" without supplying any evidence. So, when you have a bit more time, maybe?

[Elf Girl]

Thank you very very very much for that, BoP. Can't wait to hear more of BB's opinion.

[Elfhelm]

BoP, I can't refute anything you're saying, but I can refute the urban legend in your sig, vis.:

It ain't true. Not only does the Navy disclaim it, the anecdote shows up in a 1992 collection of jokes and tall tales. Worse, it appears in Stephen Covey's 1989 The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and he got it from a 1987 issue of Proceedings, a publication of the U.S. Naval Institute.

Furthermore, the Lincoln docked at Alameda, California on October 10th, 1995 - the other side of the continent from Newfoundland. hehe

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I thought you felt the movies are inadequate adaptaions, Elfhelm?

[Elfhelm]

Uh... yes, sort of... and that's why I can't refute her.

I feel they are an interpretation, that they are beautiful, that I enjoy them, but I have several strong disagreements with the screenwriters. On the other hand, have you seen what screenwriters did to Great Expectations, or what directors do to Shakespeare on an almost daily basis? *shudder* In comparison with those travesties, LotR is a pretty fair interpretation. I also have pointed out that excellent artists such as Alan Lee have added their personal touches to their renditions, and only the book is true.

And one other thing BB should know - a literal interpretation is what I did to BoP's joke, and it is impossible to do such a thing to a fantasy novel. The very thread title is preposterous. (Yes, I do see that I can click the rolly eyeballs over there...

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
BoP, I can't refute anything you're saying, but I can refute the urban legend in your sig, vis.:

Yes, I know. That is why I put the word actual in quotes. I'm well aware that the joke has been around for 40 odd years.

Edit: Oops, sorry, went postal there on ya. Currently smacking myself in the head now. Chocolate chip cookies will be available shortly.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
When you have some more time, could you please address/refute some of my points with examples? In particular: could you expand on PJ's version of the elves fading?

Fair request. I'm happy to respond. My quick n' dirty answers earlier were only because I felt compelled to respond yet had no time.

Jackson had numerous references in FOTR to the "time of the elves being over" by Elrond. He also gave us the symbolism of the falling leaves in Rivendell and the passing of the elves in the Grey Havens, complete with Sam's "Somehow, it makes me feel sad" line. In Lorien, Galadriel talks about "diminishing and going into the west." In TTT, we have the scene between Elrond and Arwen about the "time of the elves being over" again and the need for her to pass into the West. This was followed by the scene of a lonely Arwen wandering through the lifeless trees of Lorien when Elrond foretells her final fate after the death of King Elessar. We also see another scene of the elves leaving Rivendell for the Grey Havens.

Particularly for a movie, I think Jackson has done a good job of illustrating the fading of the elves. Just as importantly, there is NOTHING in Elrond sending Haldir and the elves to Helm's Deep that detracts from this theme.

Elrond said that men will have to determine their own fate now. But the fact that he sent the archer squadron to help Rohan is a sign that even as the elves prepared to leave the shores of Middle-Earth forever, Elrond was willing to again come the aid of men once more. It does nothing to diminish the "fading of the elves" theme while providing the movie with yet another shining example of the importance of people working together for a common cause.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Particularly for a movie, I think Jackson has done a good job of illustrating the fading of the elves. Just as importantly, there is NOTHING in Elrond sending Haldir and the elves to Helm's Deep that detracts from this theme.

I guess this is where we will have to agree to disagree. As GW so eloquently put it:

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Yes, indeed. It WAS a clear theme, quite well done indeed. But then Jigglypuff had to lead a force of Elves to the aid of Rohan.

[Wayfarer]

There's something further that BB fails to realize.

As many references as Jackson /tries/ to put in to the fading of the elfs (most of which don't work), it's not particularly helpful because the elfs in Jackson's film are not the Elves of tTlkien.

They're pointy eared, anal retentive, sexually ambiguous, overly blond wannabes. Jackson's Mr. Smith the Elf, the tight-up, scornful, racist which is portrayed in the film, in /no way/ compares to Elrond, the wise, understanding, helpful, elven lord of Tolkien's middle earth. Freaky Stoner Queen, despite the voice modulation and photographic negatives, doesn't come close to equalling Galadriel, powerful and noble ringbearer. In the same way Pretty Elf, no matter how many fancy and unrealistic combat manuvers he can pull off, doesn't match up to Legolas, who'se stature was like a young oak tree (although he comes much closer).

From Pointy Ears, to Samurai Swords, to Racial Magic, Jackson's Elfs are a weak bastardization of Tolkien's majestic Elves.

And on, And on! Jackson's Short Furryfoots do not display the same character that Tolkien's Hobbits displayed. His Humans are not of the same calibre as the Men of Middle Earth, his dwarves bear only a passing resemblance.

Say what you will, and perhaps there is some truth to your words, BB. Perhaps Jackson has tried and managed to reproduce the same themes that are found in Tolkien. His effort must still ultimately fail to compare to tolkien because he is attempting to repeat the same themes in a different universe- one with elfs, men, dwarfs that to those that don't know better superficially resemble Men and Elves and Dwarves, but are profoundly different upon closer examination. This is why no matter how hard you try to justify it, Jackson's Sort Of Middle Earth is not the Middle Earth of Tolkien. The Music of the Ainur, the theme of Illuvatar, is only there faintly, like a dim echo or the traces of a wine-bottle poured into the great river. It's recognizable, to those that know it, but it has been diluted almost beyond recognition.

[Black Breathalizer]

Nice post, Wayfarer. You weren't your usual wild-eyed, stark-raving mad self for a change. I would agree that there is no way that any film (regardless of who produces and directs it) will ever capture the total magic of Tolkien's masterpiece.

But I guess I'm just easier to please that you are. I have spent years looking at Tolkien art and saying things like, "oh NO, Frodo doesn't look like THAT" or "you've gotta be kidding me, THAT is a ringwraith?" I also stood in line for the premiere of Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings with excitement and high hopes only to leave the theatre disappointed and very embarrassed at the effort that was made.

The bottom line is that I can separate the books from the films and admire and enjoy the differences between the two without having to feel I'm dividing my loyalties. Whatever your feelings about the films, I truly believe they reflect a deep love and respect for Tolkien's work.

I appreciate the genuine seriousness that Peter Jackson has given this project. From the art design, to the incredible casting, to the scripts, there has been a passion for "getting it right." You may not agree with all (or any) of the production's decisions, but I believe the decisions were made with a careful eye toward what was "true to Tolkien." I honestly believe that RETURN OF THE KING will be THE BEST movie in THE BEST movie trilogy I've ever had the privilege of enjoying during my lifetime.

[Melko Belcha]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Whatever your feelings about the films, I truly believe they reflect a deep love and respect for Tolkien's work.

Yes he has a respect for Tolkien's work, but not Tolkien himself. There is a big difference between respecting someones creation and respecting the creator. That to me is the main problem, PJ carried more about the little stuff that he liked (dark gloomy action) then the stuff the author liked.

[squinteyedsoutherner]

The elves in the film do not square at all with Tolkien's analysis in Letters. The "fading of the elves" is not as simple as just leaving middle earth, the elves are changing. By the end of the third age, according to Tolkien, the immortal elves have become overwhelmed by the sorrows of an ever changing - ever dying world. They have retreated from the day to day "goings on" of middle earth and reside in little islands like Lothlorien, Mirkwood, Rivendell and the Havens and have little contact with the outside world. Their energies are now spent on maintaining their realms (Tolkien uses the word embalming to describe this) against the constant change they face and in most cases keeping all but a select few visitors out.

This estrangement is necessary for the sense of loss and nostalgia that surround events like the "Last Alliance" and other great moments in middle earth's past. This sense of nostalgia is an important part of Tolkien's writing and I would argue largely missing from the film. The fact that the characters become heroic themselves while they yearn for the heroes of days gone by is important to this story and having Elves arrive at Helm's Deep diminishes the heroic deeds of the men there. Tampering with things like the Last Alliance only shows how much the screenwriters "don't get" the original vision. I would highly recommend letters for anyone who wants to read these descriptions in full, they are very enlightening and very divergent from the film.

Tolkien's Elves would not have fought at Helm's Deep based on his own analysis of their collective mindset, nor do Elrond's words to Gandalf "who will you look to when we are gone" make any sense in light of the fact that the elves are no longer much of an "active" presence in the world by Tolkien's own description.

My biggest issue with the Elves at Helm's Deep is; from where have they come in so short a time? A quick look at a map of middle earth will show how close Isengard is to Helm's Deep and how far Rivendell and Lorien are. During the telepathic sequence it is said that "Isengard has been unleashed" and the marching army of Saruman is shown leaving Orthanc. It is not possible that any Elves could arrive in time once this was underway unless geography has been contracted or changed.

Like almost all of Jackson's major changes; Elves at Helm's Deep does not work on many levels. It does not square with Tolkien's own analysis of their state of mind nor does it square with his map or his sense of history and nostalgia for events long past. The last alliance was just that.