Abortion and Handguns

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Jersydevil... I would like to hear why, exactly, you think a fetus is not human, and what, exactly, you think it is?

I do not believe that the degree of development has any bearing on the value of life. Is a newborn less important than a five-year old? Is a five year old less importand than a teenager? They are fundamentally the same human being.

All those example are after the baby is born. I also never said that a fetus wasn't human. I just don't think it is wrong or that I should have the right to tell someone else that they can not abort a pregancy when the fetus is in the initial stages of growth (first 3 months).

[Wayfarer]

I...never said that a fetus wasn't human.

Allright, now since:
A fetus is alive.
A fetus is human.

Why shouldn't it be granted the right to exist that we give every other human?

I just don't think...that I should have the right to tell someone else that they can not abort a pregancy when the fetus is in the initial stages of growth

But you believe that a woman has the right to tell that baby that it cannot complete it's growth?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by emplynx
OK [sarcasm again] it's ok to kill humans because we have pleaty of them. Is that what your saying?

That's not what I said. Again a perfect example of distorting and twisting things around to support your opinion. What I said is that the example that you used is ridiculous. They can not be compared to what is being said about abortion. They are not human and they are not capable of making resposible choices. Don't be silly.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Allright, now since:
A fetus is alive.
A fetus is human.

Why shouldn't it be granted the right to exist that we give every other human?

Our Constitution does not extend to the unborn. Although I do consider, personally, partial abortions to be agains the 8th Amendment of "cruel and unusual punishment".

But you believe that a woman has the right to tell that baby that it cannot complete it's growth?

Sorry you disagree - but when the embryo is in the beginnings of forming - before it has the nervous structure to feel pain - I do.

[Lizra]

Luckily you are not a woman JD, and you will never be tormented with such a decision! I think it's obviously a VERY fine line here. (is it killing or not) Hopefully the young women who have read this thread will take proper precautions so as to never put themselves in the position of having to make the decision to stop a life.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
Once again, that makes perfect sense [also sarcasm...]. Any human being that interferes with someones life should be killed if the person so wishes... Sounds good.

Emp, I think it says enough about your arguments, when you are not in fact presenting any, but grossly twisting what people ARE saying. I SAID, that because a pregnancy IS such a huge thing, that the choice to go through it or not, should be given to women. That is all. Please refrain from twisting my arguments around.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Luckily you are not a woman JD, and you will never be tormented with such a decision! I think it's obviously a VERY fine line here. (is it killing or not) Hopefully the young women who have read this thread will take proper precautions so as to never put themselves in the position of having to make the decision to stop a life.

I wouldn't want to have to make that decision - and I would not want any child of mine aborted. I just think that it's a woman's choice (up to a point - which I have stated).

I know someone that had a child aborted though - and I know she thinks about it all the time. I don't know the occurences of the whole situation - but she was married at the time. Her marriage was a mess though. From what I gathered - her husband may have forced her - hoping she'd get pregnant so she'd stay. She didn't want to bring a child into that environment. She told me that she knows when the child's birthday would be and how old it would be now.

It's not an easy choice - and I never said it was.

[Silverstripe]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
It is another matter after a child is born and being raised in horrid conditions. There is a big diffence in saying they would be better off dead, compared to saying it would have been better had they never been born. I just love how the (right to lifers) like to take things out of context to try to invalidate the views of the (pro-choicers)

Let us suppose that a fetus is alive. Isn't ending that life then killing the unborn child? And if something is killed, isn't it dead?
Therefore, the child in question would have HAD to die in order to not be born.
Obviously this argument only applies to people who think the unborn baby is truly alive.
And yes, there are some pro-abortionists (not all) that have said the fetus is alive, but that the mother's right to choose is indeed more important than the unborn child's right not to be killed.

[Sister Golden Hair]

You know what really bothers me about the views of people that are against abortion? And before I start, let me just say that I respect those views, and eventhough I don't agree with their opinion, I will defend to the death their right to have it. I expect the same.

Now to answer my own question with a question. Why is it that anti-abortionists who stand out in front of women's clinics protesting and trying to interfere with the free choice of these women, are never there after they have convined the woman to have the baby. Once that baby is born the anti abortionists go back into the wood work. They don't want to concern themselves with the liives of that mother and baby once it is here.

Anti-abortionists are constantly preaching about the sanctity of life. Why then are so many abortion clinics bombed, and if life is so important to them, why do they, and I am not saying all, kill the doctors that perform abortions? They were babies too you know.

Can anyone honestly say that a teen at the age of 14 should have a baby? Is that the best thing for that girl, or that baby? Are any of you that support having that baby ready to step in and make their lives better and help them? Don't give me the answer that there is always adoption. After a woman has carried a baby, gone through the pain of labor and delivery and held that baby, it's not easy to say good bye. On the other hand, you can't miss something you never had.

Answers please. Change my mind if you can. Convince me that I am wrong.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Why is it that anti-abortionists who stand out in front of women's clinics protesting and trying to interfere with the free choice of these women, are never there after they have convined the woman to have the baby.

Anti-abortionists are constantly preaching about the sanctity of life. Why then are so many abortion clinics bombed, and if life is so important to them, why do they, and I am not saying all, kill the doctors that perform abortions? They were babies too you know.

I always thought that was kind of ironic too. It's similar with those anti-fur people and PETA people that complain about people eating meat or having fur. I guess it's alright to kill and everything as long as the cause is the one THEY believe in.

[Coney]

Hmm been reading this thread with interest.

One thing amazes me.................those agreeing with anti-abortion continue to live in country that practices abortion.

If abortion is murder why on earth do you live a country whose government allows the murder of people legally?

I certainly could not comfortably live in a place where the authorities allow murder to be commited on a daily basis.

[Lizra]

I would say that even though it's not that easy to give your baby up, It would be the right thing to do, better than stopping it's life. The best thing to do, would have been not to have gotten pregnant. (I'm not including rape here) I got birth control pills before I lost my virginity, And it wasn't easy! I had to hitch-hike downtown to Bell-Flower clinic, (with two other girl friends), three times, because I was underage (16). I was young and dumb for sure, but at least I knew I didn't want to have a baby. I see your point though SGH. There is no easy answer. I am not one who would ever picket an abortion clinic!! It's really the woman's (or girl's ) call. If abortion were made illegal, some would still get them anyway. I would like to see easy access to birth control, and a cultural shift to percieving abortion as a terrible thing to do, not just the last method of birth control.

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Anti-abortionists are constantly preaching about the sanctity of life. Why then are so many abortion clinics bombed, and if life is so important to them, why do they, and I am not saying all, kill the doctors that perform abortions? They were babies too you know.

Let me throw in my two cents... There are always extremists. Just because there are Muslim extremist terrorists and suicide bombers doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that. On the same page, most people against abortion are peaceful.

[Lizra]

I forgot to add to what I would like to see..... Less cramming of sex down young peoples throats, by the entertainment industry.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Khamûl
Let me throw in my two cents... There are always extremists. Just because there are Muslim extremist terrorists and suicide bombers doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that. On the same page, most people against abortion are peaceful.

True, and I did say "not all." The overall majority of anti-abortionists seem to show a radical side though even if it doesn't go to an extream. I would just like to see these people that are so hard-core in their views to put their money where their mouth is. Help these women and their babies after they convince them not to abort. Make your words mean something. Show them that it is that important to you if you are willing to go that far. Being that adamant means making their problem yours.

[Wayfarer]

Can anyone honestly say that a teen at the age of 14 should have a baby? Is that the best thing for that girl, or that baby? Are any of you that support having that baby ready to step in and make their lives better and help them?

In a heartbeat! I believe in doing anything I can to help anpther person. And I agree with you-not enough people really
doing anything to help. But it's not limited to pro-lifers. or abortion in general.

Anti-abortionists are constantly preaching about the sanctity of life. Why then are so many abortion clinics bombed, and if life is so important to them, why do they, and I am not saying all, kill the doctors that perform abortions? They were babies too you know.

as far as I'm aware, nobody has a monopoly on stupidity.

After a woman has carried a baby, gone through the pain of labor and delivery and held that baby, it's not easy to say good bye. On the other hand, you can't miss something you never had.

do you not read your own side of the argument?
as recently as two posts before you say this, jersydevil reports:

I know someone that had a child aborted though - and I know she thinks about it all the time.

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Coney
If abortion is murder why on earth do you live a country whose government allows the murder of people legally?

I certainly could not comfortably live in a place where the authorities allow murder to be commited on a daily basis.

I also shudder to think that I live in a country that has begun to sue fast food chains because their food causes people to become obese. I'll take the bad with the good.

[Wayfarer]

Lizra: that is not a problem limited to the entertainment industry. In fact, I don't think entertainment is even a major factor.

THe problem is that too many people, including most constituents of abortion, support the ideology that no person should be held to a standard by another. And so promiscuious sexuallity is ok.

[Sister Golden Hair]

do you not read your own side of the argument?
as recently as two posts before you say this, jersydevil reports:

I did read that Wayfarer, and I know someone that had an abortion and she was also married at the time. She is still haunted with that loss, but she also says that she can't even imagine how she would have managed and what life for that child might have been like. When I ask her today if she regrets her choice, her answer is "No" That doesn't mean that she is not effected and bothered by the choice she made.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Lizra: that is not a problem limited to the entertainment industry. In fact, I don't think entertainment is even a major factor.

I agree - it's a cop out to blame entertainment. The real problem is families not sitting down and communicating as much.

THe problem is that too many people, including most constituents of abortion, support the ideology that no person should be held to a standard by another. And so promiscuious sexuallity is ok.

So whose standard should everyone be held to? Right now the majority of Americans support limited abortion - that is not going to change anytime soon. It seems as if American society is being held to a particular standard - it's just that anti-abortionists don't like that standard and want everyone to conform to theirs.