Iluvatar made Melkor evil?

[Rían]

and re hell: your quote:

from this i gather that the jews and muslims will suffer eternal damnation in hell, since they dont accept jesus as the son of god, only as a prophet of his word?

The quick (and correct) answer is that God is just, as Lief said, and He clearly states that it is His will (ie, his desire) that all be saved, although it is our choice because of the free will that He has given us, and that we shall have no excuse because He will have clearly presented everything we need to make the choice for Him. He also clearly states that we are saved through Jesus.

Now I think that unfortunately some Christians have gotten a little legalistic and oversimplified things - you've probably met some - those that say, basically, you have to say this little prayer in these words to become a Christian. However, I firmly believe that the truth is not that simple; it usually isn't, especially when you're talking about things of God (which makes sense, because to put it simply, He is WAY smarter than us!!)

You see, Abraham, who is called the Father of our Faith, was referred to in the Bible as having been made righteous by his faith. Now as Christians, we are "made righteous" by our faith in Jesus. But Abraham was born WAY BEFORE Jesus!! So how could he have been saved when he didn't even know who Jesus was? The answer is thru his faith, and "through Jesus" in some way that we don't fully understand. The God described in the Bible is NOT unjust! He won't say, "sorry, I guess you missed the announcement when you fell asleep - now go to hell!" Again, His desire is that all are saved, and He presents information to us so that we CAN make a decision for Him, but in the end He will let our free will choice stand.

And finally, since this is getting so long, just a quick note about what hell and heaven are. So many people think heaven is a lovely little place where happy little people have lots of fun things to do, and hell is the awful place where a crabby and unjust God sends people to when He is mad with them. Well, the extrememly short version is: heaven is where God is, and hell is where God is NOT. Heaven is a glorious place where God reigns, as is completely right! And His people will fall on their faces and worship Him in amazing joy! God does not "send people to hell" kicking and screaming; on the contrary, He tries everything to get them to heaven, even kicking and screaming, but there is a point where it is so obvious that a final decision has been made, and the person does not want to have anything to do with heaven (which is where God reigns in majesty), that God, with great sorrow, says to them "YOUR will be done" - and the only alternative to heaven is hell.

[Rían]

This was bugging me last night so let me make a comment on a phrase that I had used. I won't edit it out, because people have probably already seen it, but I will explain it instead.

When I said : "And His people will fall on their faces and worship Him in amazing joy!" - that's really rather a Biblical-type phrase that only Christians would really understand. What I was trying to show is that the reaction of a Christian to God would be, among other things, joyful and reverential at the same time. Think of if you were a budding physics student and your professor said "class, we have a guest speaker today - Albert Einstein!" - you would have a great feeling of reverence and awe. It's like that, only multiplied greatly. And think of if you were told that someone that you greatly loved was dead - and then there's a knock at the door and there they are! Just a small picture of the joy and love that Christians would feel in God's presence.

Anyway, hope that answered your questions, MM. And to get back to the thread - No, Iluvatar did NOT create Melkor evil. However, he DID create him in the first place, so obviously he thought it was the right thing to do, even with the possible tragic consequences, for free will could be no other way.

[Sister Golden Hair]

No, Iluvatar did NOT create Melkor evil. However, he DID create him in the first place, so obviously he thought it was the right thing to do, even with the possible tragic consequences, for free will could be no other way.

I agree with this and also Iluvatar made him to be the most powerfull of the Valar. I think that invites another aspect for his evilness. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. This would show Melkor to be incapable of using his free will in any manner of good, but only to achieve more power and domination.

[Lief Erikson]

Where does it say that Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar?



I do agree with you that he was corrupted because of his great power, though. He was filled with envy and pride, and thought that he should be ruler.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lief Erikson
Where does it say that Melkor was the most powerful of the Valar?



I do agree with you that he was corrupted because of his great power, though. He was filled with envy and pride, and thought that he should be ruler.

After grabbing my Sil and looking up the reference that inspired my previous post, I see that I remembered the word wrong. It was not power, but might. In some ways I guess that can be associated in the same way though. Here is the quote from the Silmarillion.

Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Ea.

Also

Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor, but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.

[Lief Erikson]

In this instance, I do take might and power the same way. Thanks for the quote!

[Rían]

SGH comes thru again!

[Artanis]

It is said at least once in Ainulindale that Melkor was made more powerful and with greater knowledge than all the other Ainur. I'll bring you the quote when I get home today.

So, why did Melkor turn to evil? Shouldn't he rather be grateful for his supreme power and knowledge compared to his brethren? I think a possible explanation is this: He saw the might of Iluvatar and wanted to be like him, to have the power to create things at his own will. A natural desire, I think, given his great power, as it would seem to him that his power was almost like the power of Iluvatar.

[MasterMothra]

artanis is correct. melkor searched relentlessly for the flame imperishable, the ability to create. he was given the most power by eru. the question here is why? it is ridiculus to think that eru did not know what the future held for melkor, that should be obviously clear. evil and darkness were in illuvatar's plan from the beginning.

"and thou, melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

from the beginning, it was all illuvatars plan, every part of it, good and evil. it was part of his plan, and none would understand it until illuvatar was ready.

"Illuvatar said," behold your music! this is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that i set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. and thou, melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory."


"which it may seem that he himself devised or added",
the ainur only perceived that they actually wrote a part of the theme, but it was always eru's plan.

"no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."
even though melkor thought his music was his creation, it was never so. it was eru's music, his vision, that was sung through melkor.

the perception of free will is a theme that is played throughout the story. there was no music that had not a source in eru,

"for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

the music of the ainur contained more than just the creation of arda. it contained the coming of the elves and of men. it contained the flight of the noldor, the defeat of sauron in the 3rd age. the music did not stop once the conception of arda began. the music contained the whole history of arda from the beginning of the music, until the last age. this was all devised by eru, not even the ainur could perceive all his thoughts and plans; eru said it himself. the "evil" in arda was just as important as the "good", both had thier source in eru, and both were part of things more wonderful than any could imagine.

[Lief Erikson]

I think you are wrong in saying that everything that has happened was a part of Ilúvatar's plan. If it was, why did he punish the Numenoreans? It rescinds the idea of justice, to think that. Evil was made an option because of free will, and Ilúvatar knew that some of his creations would follow this. It wasn't his responsibility to cut off all evil from the beginning, although I agree with you that once evil happened, he could use it to his greater purposes and turn it to good.

And to Artanis: I don't think that Melkor simply wanted to create creatures as well. All throughout the Silmarillion, his intentions and goals are evil, wicked and intelligent. In he beginning as well, he attempted to sing his own theme. And that theme was a discordant thing with the perfect and beautiful music of Ilúvatar. He wanted power for himself.

My opinion is that Melkor's first sins, after being elevated to such a high status, were pride and envy. He wanted the power that Ilúvatar had. When one is given a taste of power, sometimes one developes a lust for more, and his power was greater than any other's save Ilúvatar alone. He didn't want to be underneath anyone, and he was jealous of Manwë. If his goals had been honorable and natural in the beginning, he wouldn't have so swiftly turned to evil. No, his evil began beforehand, and it wasn't all through bitterness.

[MasterMothra]

sorry if my opinion does not suit your way of thinking. why is the question of all questions, is it not? why did eru create arda? why the valar? where we differ on illuvatars role has a lot to do with whether we can keep the sil from becoming the bible. i do not read the sil and use the bible to influence my thoughts on why things occured. all i have to go on is what is presented in the text. in the text it says that the music was rooted in eru's thought.

"and thou, melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. for he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

its not that hard to comprehend if you free yourself from your christian influence for just a moment.

[Sister Golden Hair]

As I said awhile back, we won't let this turn into a religious debate. MM, I can see that you feel quite strongly about what you are saying, but let's not get too carried away or upset.

You know I was thinking last night how Manwe and Melkor remind me of Data and Lore in Star Trek N.G. And Dr. Nunion Sunge (sp) is Iluvatar.

[Artanis]

From Ainulindale:

To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. He had gone often alone into the void places, seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Beings things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar. But being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren.

Lief, I think Melkor started out with no evil purposes, but when he didn't find the Flame, and realized that he was not able to create things by himself, but would always be the instrument of Iluvatar, then

Melkor was filled with shame, of which came secret anger.

And thus evil came to be.

MM, I like what you say about interpretation of the text due to our own personal beliefs. We prefer Iluvatar to be good, in the sense we think is good. It is sometimes difficult to keep an objective distance. But we should remember that ME is not our world, and none of us are Iluvatar, and we don't know his mind and his plans.

[MasterMothra]

"But we should remember that ME is not our world, and none of us are Iluvatar, and we don't know his mind and his plans."

my point exactly! all we do know is that everything is part of eru's master plan.

i dont think of eru in the sil as good or evil, i see him presenting both extremes of the spectrum. if everything was always "good" it would be taken for granted, but throw in some rain and it makes the sunny days that much brighter.

[Lief Erikson]

Well, I do see Ilúvatar as good, and that's what gets in my way, I suppose. Because what you all are suggesting is that "The ends justify the means," is the perspective being used in The Silmarillion.

That presents to me a contradiction as well, for the characters in The Lord of the Rings don't go by that rule. What is good and right is what they follow. You notice, instead of leaving Boromir stuck full of arrows, Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn took the time to decently and honorably bury him at see. Aragorn even sang a song at his funeral. They did it with respect, instead of simply haring off after Frodo and Sam or Merry and Pippin.

And it therefore seems very odd to me that the characters in The Lord of the Rings are better than the God in the Sil.

[MasterMothra]

well, i dont think anyone here has any grand illusions that eru has competition in the "greatness" department. everything is part of eru's vision, whether it be good or bad. they all play a part and in the end everything works out. gollum was surely an evil creature, but he contributed to downfall of sauron, and that was a good thing, eh? bilbo, gandalf and frodo let gollum live and play out his role, be it for good or bad. did their means justify the end?

[Lief Erikson]

There's a difference. They were tempering justice with mercy, and they didn't know whether Gollum would do evil or good.

What you're suggesting, of Ilúvatar using evil and good for his own purposes, and not being good himself, means that you're accepting (In Tolkien's world) the idea that the means justify the end, and that Ilúvatar created things better then himself (Whether he's in competition with them or not).

To me, the first statement is incompatible with things shown in The Lord of the Rings, and is definitely NOT a running theme throughout his material. The second statement also I see as ridiculous, and the simple fact that in an act of justice he wiped out the Numenoreans shows that he doesn't use evil and good and everything that everyone does as a part of his plan. On the contrary, he's taking sides with good over evil.

[MasterMothra]

first, i never said that the beings eru created were better than him. that is ridiculus. why does eru have to be like the god in the bible? maybe he isnt. if free will is the assumption, then why did he intervene with the numinorians? men were never a threat to the might of the valar. maybe the means do justify the ends sometimes.

[Lief Erikson]

People who have free will don't necessarily have the ability to go unpunished for their actions. Ilúvatar allowed the Numenoreans to go their own way, permitting them to turn to evil because to stop them would have been to end their free will. He accepted what they had chosen to become, but he punished them for it in an act of justice.

This act is similar to other prevailing themes that are visible in The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion. In the Silmarillion, the Noldor turn away from the Blessed Realms in a wrongheaded and rebellious act. Consequently, they are punished severely for their act of free will. They have a worse time of it then anyone else, fighting in a no-win situation against Morgoth until they were finally defeated. And, just as in the Bible, (When the Israelites cried out for God to save them from their oppressors) the Valar came to come and help them in power and destroyed their enemies.

There are similarities between the Bible and the Silmarillion, and parallel themes and plot lines in places. You don't have to accept the similarities with the Bible to read the Silmarillion, and I know that there are some differences. But I think that the themes of the Silmarillion has a strong emphasis on punishment for evil and eventual upholding of the righteous. Ilúvatar consistently is against evil, and when Melkor turns to evil, his is the only discordant note in Ilúvatar's song.

And then in The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says that Frodo was meant to have the ring, just as Bilbo was meant to have it. There was a higher authority at work, and in giving the Ring to Bilbo it did something that the Ring didn't intend. This higher authority could work through the most unlikely creatures imaginable, the weakest, yet they were also humble, and through the small person great and good things can be done. Ilúvatar's hand is evident in the world of The Lord of the Rings; on this and a few other occasions it is discussed directly. And his hand is always working for good, and for judgement of evil. Judgement of evil is a prevailing theme, and it isn't one that you'd find if Ilúvatar wasn't good or evil himself.

Things about Ilúvatar's nature can be discerned also from his creations. All that he created was beautiful and fair, and all that his loyal servants, the Valar created was beautiful and fair. Morgoth rebelled, and all that he created was wicked and twisted. Ilúvatar didn't create Melkor evil, but he can turn evil to good and he commands all things for right.

[Rían]

Originally posted by MasterMothra
well, i dont think anyone here has any grand illusions that eru has competition in the "greatness" department. everything is part of eru's vision, whether it be good or bad. they all play a part and in the end everything works out. gollum was surely an evil creature, but he contributed to downfall of sauron, and that was a good thing, eh? bilbo, gandalf and frodo let gollum live and play out his role, be it for good or bad. did their means justify the end?

Do you have Letters of JRR Tolkien? One of his letters addresses the whole letting Gollum live thing and his thoughts behind it. It was a fascinating letter, but I can't get it now because I have a terrible cold and I'm just doing a quick check-in here. If you have letters, see if you can find it, or I'll find it in a day or two.