Victimless crimes

[Cirdan]

Why are you running? You should be glad he's still interested after twenty years. Most women, my age anyway, complain if they don't get enough.

Porn is for adults, if that is what they want. Words, ideas, pictures, movies can all be explicit. Does media watter?

What about implied sex and simulated sex?

Is context important?

In relationships, sometimes the feeling of love stimulates more *coughs* vigorous activity. If the story needs to express this visually, is this porn because it's fiction?

I would say porn is only that which is explicit material only. Obviously there would be some grey area there, hence the problem. Who draws the line?

[afro-elf]

I think your views about women in porn are skewered by your dislike of it.

I can talk about the "middle ground" of strippers and canadian "massage parlours." Some of the girls I know as friends others just as acquaintences. Two of my friends actually date, and one lives with a stripper.

SOME did not like it at all. I HAVE NEVER DENIED THIS.

HOWEVER, you are gravely mistaken if you think ONLY a SMALL percentage of the girls find their job totally unpleasant.

[Lizra]

What can I say, You guys think you know what women like, fine believe what you wish.

[afro-elf]

Just because YOU don't like it why do you assume ALL women don't like it. Those were FEMALE strippers I mentioned above if that was not clear. So your statement is non sequitor because it was FEMALES who said they liked their jobs NOT MEN.

I'm only telling you what these WOMEN said.

[afro-elf]

What can I say, You guys think you know what women like, fine believe what you wish

By the same token I could say "You women think you know what ALL women like, fine believe what you wish"

[afro-elf]

oops I guess she went off in a huff

oh well would have like to have hear her reply

[afro-elf]

what about the women who posted HERE that they were not against it

[Cirdan]

There is a generation gap among feminists apparently. Thong feminism is one euphemism I've seen for it. Everybody gets more conservative as they get older and as time goes by, standards change. The book "Our Bodies, Ourselves" was big in the 70's, so the backlash against "sexploitation" is somewhat hippocritical. One profession, one's life style, one's political beliefs, are one's own choices. No choice is free from influence, but, at least in free countries, one is supposed to be responsible for one's own choices.

[azalea]

I will concede that there is no basis for an argument for pornography defined as non-obscene to be illegal. But I do think that it is harmful to society. I agree that Britney, et al, are just as bad as porn in objectifying women. As for the women who posted here, again I meant womankind.

*ignores personal remark BOP made against my sex life since I love sex as much as my husband does*

AE, I know many women like working in the sex industry. It pays very well and they get some kind of boost in their self esteem when they are ogled *weeps for those women*. I mean that stripping and porn objectifies women in general, not those particular women. Of course they wouldn't be doing it if they didn't like it, or at least enjoy the money (too bad they couldn't use their brains to make a living -- society loses out, or too bad if it's due to greed). What will they do when they can no longer make a living that way due to shall we say, aging? Or is it just a "I'm putting myself through college" thing?

Anyway, I was trying to get myself back on topic with the comment about computer animated child porn, by which I didn't mean real children, but computer generated graphics of child porn. At this point it is still illegal while it is being debated, if I understand. There are those who wish to make money off of it who are fighting for it's legality. So you think that's okay?

Seat belt issue -- tricky one. The insurance reason is the reason it was made a law, but you can only be ticketed for it here if you are pulled over for another reason. I can think of 2 instances where there would be a victim: Idiot is not wearing seatbelt and is paralized in accident, has no med ins and taxpayers are the victim in having to pay for his care the rest of his life. Idiots not wearing their seatbelts and die in accident, leaving as the victims 3 kids who now have no parents and grow up in foster care. Anyway I agree with the natural selection comment in this case!

Drugs and prostitution -- I wonder how legalizing them would work (comment about drug parks: there would be people who would want to do drugs in private, since being seen as a patron at one would compromise their reputation and would harm their career). The state government controls the sale of liquor here (not beer and wine). Would it work like that? The prostitution one would be heavily regulated. Maybe they would fix the prices so that it would no longer be profitable and no one would be willing to do it. Drugs -- there's still the issue of long term health effects and sucking up taxpayer money for treatment, or higher healthcare costs for everyone as a result. I know it's the same with smoking, I have a feeling if America could turn back the clock that too would be illegal.

[Lizra]

Hi guys, I didn't go off in a huff, I went back to bed! I've been trying to tell you AE, that the reason I think these women say they like it, is because they want you to think they do, because you're a male. They want you to think they're sexually free women,who enjoy these types of things, maybe you'll date one, maybe it's her image, (if you are a stripper, that better be your image or you'll suck!) , go back to what I said at the beginning of our debate about women acting like they like it (Being hot sexy babes who want it all the time) to please men, cause men rule their world. I know this will sound incredible but in a nutshell, I'll say they're lying and if you'll talk to them twenty years from now, the truth will be heard. Women can do amazing things to get men to do what they want. You won't believe me, I know. Its my experience as a women that makes me say this. If men only knew what women really thought!!! (and vice versa I'm sure)

[azalea]

Okay how about this -- drugs are legal with heavy regulation, but one must pay for any adverse health effects from their drug use with their OWN money, not insurance or Medicaid. I'd still feel sorry for the loved ones of those who weren't just occasional users, they'd be losing that person to the drugs. Also there's the issue of unknown long term impairments that might affect the abilities of those in positions such as surgeons or pilots. I certainly wouldn't want to be the patient or passenger in that case. I know the same goes for alcohol, but that needs to be addressed too. The government would leave itself wide open for lawsuits if it allowed drug use and then had those kinds of problems arising from it.

[Lizra]

Cirdan, What does Our Bodies Ourselves book have to do with sexploitation, you lost me there??

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Hi guys, I didn't go off in a huff, I went back to bed! I've been trying to tell you AE, that the reason I think these women say they like it, is because they want you to think they do, because you're a male. They want you to think they're sexually free women,who enjoy these types of things, maybe you'll date one, maybe it's her image, (if you are a stripper, that better be your image or you'll suck!) , go back to what I said at the beginning of our debate about women acting like they like it (Being hot sexy babes who want it all the time) to please men, cause men rule their world. I know this will sound incredible but in a nutshell, I'll say they're lying and if you'll talk to them twenty years from now, the truth will be heard. Women can do amazing things to get men to do what they want. You won't believe me, I know. Its my experience as a women that makes me say this. If men only knew what women really thought!!! (and vice versa I'm sure)

So in other words what you are saying is that woman don't have a mind of their own and are puppets of men - at least the woman that choose to do something that you don't approve of? Woman choose to do different things, just because you don't like what they do - doesn't make it wrong. You're argument that you use there - is the same one that caused New Jersey to take away the right of woman to vote in the early 1800's. Woman were able to vote in the late 1700's and early 1800's in New Jersey - but then they revised it - because they felt woman were "being controlled by their husbands" and were told who to vote for. They used the argument that it was double voting.

I guess if woman can be so manipulated - I guess woman's rights really haven't gone anywhere and they are just the "weaker sex".

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by azalea
Okay how about this -- drugs are legal with heavy regulation, but one must pay for any adverse health effects from their drug use with their OWN money, not insurance or Medicaid. I'd still feel sorry for the loved ones of those who weren't just occasional users, they'd be losing that person to the drugs. Also there's the issue of unknown long term impairments that might affect the abilities of those in positions such as surgeons or pilots. I certainly wouldn't want to be the patient or passenger in that case. I know the same goes for alcohol, but that needs to be addressed too. The government would leave itself wide open for lawsuits if it allowed drug use and then had those kinds of problems arising from it.

You can't sue the government under those circumstances. In terms of pilots and doctors being on drugs. Sorry - but a lot of doctors are on drugs - usually perscription drugs. But airlines would have the same drug tests they have now to prevent pilots from flying under the influence of drugs. Just because drug use is illegal - doesn't mean that pilot, doctors, or others aren't doing them.

I'm a computer consultant - and almost every job I take requires me to take a drug test. I feel this is an invasion of privacy in most cases. When I consult for a pharmaceutical company - like I am now - I can understand the need to have drug testing. The whole drug thing has become a witch hunt. It's moved into the high schools and invading everyone's privacy. I'm not 100% against drug tests - but I don't think that people on the chess team or the cheerleaders should be drug tested. The only reason I feel that sports players should be - is because of drugs that can enhance their performance. The whole "drug hunt" is getting way out of hand.

[Lizra]

Hey JD, well, for some women , some things never change. (I guess) It's a weird world we live in, things don't always make sense. That's just my take on it, You don't have to buy it, I'm sure you don't. Just lettin you know there's others out here with different opinions! Oh and women do have minds of their own, some just choose to pretend to enjoy being part of the porn industry because it gets them where they want to go. I think they want you to believe they do it for pleasure, but I don't believe it at all. Ha!, I say to that!!! The doing it for pleasure part is all part of the illusion.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lizra
Cirdan, What does Our Bodies Ourselves book have to do with sexploitation, you lost me there??

Free will, freedom of choice, self-responsibility, self determination

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by azalea
Okay how about this -- drugs are legal with heavy regulation, but one must pay for any adverse health effects from their drug use with their OWN money, not insurance or Medicaid. I'd still feel sorry for the loved ones of those who weren't just occasional users, they'd be losing that person to the drugs. Also there's the issue of unknown long term impairments that might affect the abilities of those in positions such as surgeons or pilots. I certainly wouldn't want to be the patient or passenger in that case. I know the same goes for alcohol, but that needs to be addressed too. The government would leave itself wide open for lawsuits if it allowed drug use and then had those kinds of problems arising from it.

As long as alcohol and tobacco are treate the same way, we may have benificial results. User licensing and registration would identify users. This may seem like an invasion of privacy, but we're talking about a priviledge not a right, much like a driver's license. Employers in high risk area should have the right to know if a potential employee is impaired (drugs, psychological, physical, anything... it is their money). Of course, additional penaltied for crimes committed under the influence of an impairment drug (alcohol included) should have additional penalties, including loss of the user priviledge.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Lizra
Oh and women do have minds of their own, some just choose to pretend to enjoy being part of the porn industry because it gets them where they want to go. I think they want you to believe they do it for pleasure, but I don't believe it at all. Ha!, I say to that!!! The doing it for pleasure part is all part of the illusion.

Then you are saying that you know what is going on in their heads and how they feel. Sounds a bit pretentious to me. I don't claim to know what others feel or think, but I do support people's rights to make their own desicions and not pass judgement on them.

[Lizra]

I wouldn't call it pretentiousness, but you can! I'm still not getting your point Cirdan. OBOS was about not letting your gynecologist dupe you, you know, taking control of your body. Whats the sexploitation backlash?

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by Lizra
I wouldn't call it pretentiousness, but you can! I'm still not getting your point Cirdan. OBOS was about not letting your gynecologist dupe you, you know, taking control of your body. Whats the sexploitation backlash?

Shall I type slower? You really can't see the extension of choice and self determination to the participation in the sex industry as an act of choice as opposed to sitting back and moaning about being a helpless victim?

Then I've been objectified by every employer I've ever had. They tricked me with offers of money and opportunity, but all they wanted was for me to work long hours, accept small pay raises, and make them look good. Boo-hoo! Poor little me and the rest of the down-trodden proletariat. What was I to do? Find another job? Better educate myself? How my employers have disgraced my kind! (are you getting the sarcasm )