Women in LOTR - Page 7

Celandine · 09-03-2002, 12:50 PM

[I never really thought about it before

Celandine · 09-03-2002, 12:52 PM

Quote:

originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf

there is a lack of female villians

I agree they need some more female villians

Eruviel Greenleaf · 09-03-2002, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Celandine

I agree they need some more female villians

Preferably not more spiders, though

Starr Polish · 09-03-2002, 08:42 PM

Well, perhaps the maternal instinct of doing anything to protect offspring (science talk...sorta) can be manipulated, which may be why women would be more ruthless.

They're also supposed to be better cops, because IN GENERAL they can think more rationally than men. (Note, in general. I probably wouldn't.)

Breaking a nail isn't that big of a deal. I have sort of long, uneven nails, and it can be painful, but heck, if women can survive childbirth they sure can deal with a broken nail.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 09-03-2002, 09:05 PM

I don't think I could deal with childbirth.

Beruthiel · 09-04-2002, 02:21 AM

<--------- My namesake is one of the only female villans ever discussed. She was a sorceress, and kept cats as spies. (but she's only mentioned by Aragorn in passing.)

Sween · 09-04-2002, 09:34 AM

dont forget the time that tolkien served in women were not even considred to go into batlle. he served in the first world war so he would never even want a woman in a real dangerous situation.

Elbereth · 09-04-2002, 04:27 PM

Queen Berethuil...I had forgotten about her. She is a very interesting character, because there is only one sentence about her! But what makes you think she's a villain? I'm just asking, because I don't remember that part very well.

As for women going to war, I agree that it wouldn't be relastic in the story because of the timeperiod when Tolkien was writing, as Sween said, and because I think it would take away from Eowyn's part in the story, which I did enjoy. I mean, if women were allowed to fight in battles, then Eowyn wouldn't have to go disguised and there wouldn't have been a big deal about it. That's just what I think Tolkien might have been thinking as a writer, trying to build up battle-suspense with a well-developed charcter. And by the way, it should be noted that once people did realize Eowyn was a girl, they rewarded her greatly and she became a warrior of no less renown than the greatest kings. That is not to say that I think women are not good soliders, because they are. But sometimes that isn't a good thing.

UnStashable · 09-04-2002, 06:54 PM

Beruthial was a queen of Gondor who was more in line of just being a jerk than a true evil Lord (lady?). She supposedly sent a bunch of cats around to spy on people but the king got sick of her tomfoolery and had her and her cats banished on ship (UT). This might have been just a legend though.

two new points however one I'm not sure about vampires in the Tolkien, LOTR universe but the leader and most powerful(?) vampire, save Sauron who isn't really a vampire. Was female her name meant secret woman of shadow or something I can't remeber it now. She was also Sauron's messanger or something.

Also from unfinshed tales they did have stories about fair numbers of "woman warriors" but they were bad guys. Which I find fairly intersting (and novel). There was tribe of Easterling (wainriders i think) who invaded Gondor's Ally the Northmen and subjugated some of the Northmen. Later when fighting Gondor Directly Thier main army was defeated The Northmen had rebelled and it said something how about the unarmed slaves fought with the oldmen and armed young female eastlings.

So you get the women warriors and thier evil and cruel how entertaining

(jk)

Christiana · 09-04-2002, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eärniel
Women didn't go around waving bows and swords at that time. So I doubt a female elven archer would have been logical.

so thats why the felloship is lookin down the bows of female elves in Lothlorien?

Eruviel Greenleaf · 09-05-2002, 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Christiana
so thats why the felloship is lookin down the bows of female elves in Lothlorien?

Might I kindly remind you...this is the BOOK FORUM!!!

Beruthiel · 09-05-2002, 03:52 AM

Are we hinting at Ungoliant as the female vampire? She was a giant spider.

And Beruthiel?
This is from The Encylopeadia of Arda, which credits Chris Tolkien for finding it in an unpublished manuscript:
The dark and mournful Queen to Tarannon Falastur, the twelfth King of Gondor. She owned ten marvellous and magical cats, that she set to spy on the doings of the people of Gondor. Her scheming was her undoing, though, since her husband set her adrift on the Great Sea, with only her cats for company. She sailed into the far south and was never heard of again, but she and her mysterious cats lived on in legend for millennia.

I have also read that when her cats went by, men cursed.
She was quite mysterious.

UnStashable · 09-05-2002, 10:30 AM

Ungoliants translated name is Gloom-Weaver not Woman of Secret shadow and Ungoliant was never servent to sauron in the 1st age (or ever as far I think). Her name was Thuringwethil and Luthien was disguised as her when she came to the Island of werewolves in the Silm.

not in the least to be confused with Ungoliant

Bertuthiel · 09-05-2002, 02:34 PM

OOOhhhh! You're referring to the fell bat-form! An interesting thought that it might be able to change into a "vampirewoman".
Never thunka that.

UnStashable · 09-05-2002, 02:57 PM

Ummm now im confused (fell bat form?, change into vampirewoman?)

Caleb · 09-05-2002, 05:55 PM

Thats because you dont understand. You must understand to no longer be confused.

Elbereth · 09-05-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UnStashable
two new points however one I'm not sure about vampires in the Tolkien, LOTR universe but the leader and most powerful(?) vampire, save Sauron who isn't really a vampire. Was female her name meant secret woman of shadow or something I can't remeber it now. She was also Sauron's messanger or something.

Also from unfinshed tales they did have stories about fair numbers of "woman warriors" but they were bad guys. Which I find fairly intersting (and novel). There was tribe of Easterling (wainriders i think) who invaded Gondor's Ally the Northmen and subjugated some of the Northmen. Later when fighting Gondor Directly Thier main army was defeated The Northmen had rebelled and it said something how about the unarmed slaves fought with the oldmen and armed young female eastlings.

So you get the women warriors and thier evil and cruel how entertaining

(jk) [/B]

So this is from Unfinished Tales? Must get hold of that. What was the time in which this invasion happened? (first age? It is not mentioned in the Silmarillion, unless there is a part I missed)

**Nurvingiel** · 10-02-2002, 01:40 AM

Even though the Fellowship was unbalanced in terms of gender, I would never want it to be changed.

Incidentally, there are famale dwarves, just not very many. That's why Dwarves reproduce very slowly. They don't look exactly the same as men, they have much less whiskers. A woman-dwarves side-whiskers are very attractive to men.

Luthien Tinuviel is the most kick ass woman ever! (In LOTR)

durin's bane · 10-02-2002, 08:17 PM

dwarf women must have been the first bearded ladies... *cough cough*

a female character in the fellowship wouldn't of been bad... I could imagine Eowyn replacing Aragorn. for some unknown reason, i don't like aragorn.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-02-2002, 09:56 PM

Dwarf women are supposed to be like that. They're not wrong for being different. They exhibit a character that humans would find unattractive, but human values do not apply to them - Dwarf values do.
I might be an Elf, but someone has to stick up for Dwarf women around here.

Why is it that you don't like Aragorn? I'm curious, and I hope no one dumps on you for not liking him. It's a perfectly valid feeling, plus it generates more debate

But maybe we should start a new thread about that.

09-03-2002, 12:50 PM	#121
Celandine Elven Warrior Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 168	[I never really thought about it before Last edited by Celandine : 09-03-2002 at 12:53 PM.

09-03-2002, 08:42 PM	#124
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Well, perhaps the maternal instinct of doing anything to protect offspring (science talk...sorta) can be manipulated, which may be why women would be more ruthless. They're also supposed to be better cops, because IN GENERAL they can think more rationally than men. (Note, in general. I probably wouldn't.) Breaking a nail isn't that big of a deal. I have sort of long, uneven nails, and it can be painful, but heck, if women can survive childbirth they sure can deal with a broken nail. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

09-03-2002, 09:05 PM	#125
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	I don't think I could deal with childbirth. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

09-04-2002, 02:21 AM	#126
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	<--------- My namesake is one of the only female villans ever discussed. She was a sorceress, and kept cats as spies. (but she's only mentioned by Aragorn in passing.) Last edited by Beruthiel : 09-04-2002 at 02:22 AM.

09-04-2002, 09:34 AM	#127
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	dont forget the time that tolkien served in women were not even considred to go into batlle. he served in the first world war so he would never even want a woman in a real dangerous situation. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

09-04-2002, 04:27 PM	#128
Elbereth Elven Warrior Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 122	Queen Berethuil...I had forgotten about her. She is a very interesting character, because there is only one sentence about her! But what makes you think she's a villain? I'm just asking, because I don't remember that part very well. As for women going to war, I agree that it wouldn't be relastic in the story because of the timeperiod when Tolkien was writing, as Sween said, and because I think it would take away from Eowyn's part in the story, which I did enjoy. I mean, if women were allowed to fight in battles, then Eowyn wouldn't have to go disguised and there wouldn't have been a big deal about it. That's just what I think Tolkien might have been thinking as a writer, trying to build up battle-suspense with a well-developed charcter. And by the way, it should be noted that once people did realize Eowyn was a girl, they rewarded her greatly and she became a warrior of no less renown than the greatest kings. That is not to say that I think women are not good soliders, because they are. But sometimes that isn't a good thing. __________________ A! Elbereth Gilithoniel! 'Fate goes ever as fate must.' Beowulf (Seamus Haney's translation) FRODO LIVES!!!

09-04-2002, 06:54 PM	#129
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	Beruthial was a queen of Gondor who was more in line of just being a jerk than a true evil Lord (lady?). She supposedly sent a bunch of cats around to spy on people but the king got sick of her tomfoolery and had her and her cats banished on ship (UT). This might have been just a legend though. two new points however one I'm not sure about vampires in the Tolkien, LOTR universe but the leader and most powerful(?) vampire, save Sauron who isn't really a vampire. Was female her name meant secret woman of shadow or something I can't remeber it now. She was also Sauron's messanger or something. Also from unfinshed tales they did have stories about fair numbers of "woman warriors" but they were bad guys. Which I find fairly intersting (and novel). There was tribe of Easterling (wainriders i think) who invaded Gondor's Ally the Northmen and subjugated some of the Northmen. Later when fighting Gondor Directly Thier main army was defeated The Northmen had rebelled and it said something how about the unarmed slaves fought with the oldmen and armed young female eastlings. So you get the women warriors and thier evil and cruel how entertaining (jk) __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

09-05-2002, 03:52 AM	#132
Beruthiel Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 41	Are we hinting at Ungoliant as the female vampire? She was a giant spider. And Beruthiel? This is from The Encylopeadia of Arda, which credits Chris Tolkien for finding it in an unpublished manuscript: The dark and mournful Queen to Tarannon Falastur, the twelfth King of Gondor. She owned ten marvellous and magical cats, that she set to spy on the doings of the people of Gondor. Her scheming was her undoing, though, since her husband set her adrift on the Great Sea, with only her cats for company. She sailed into the far south and was never heard of again, but she and her mysterious cats lived on in legend for millennia. I have also read that when her cats went by, men cursed. She was quite mysterious.

09-05-2002, 10:30 AM	#133
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	Ungoliants translated name is Gloom-Weaver not Woman of Secret shadow and Ungoliant was never servent to sauron in the 1st age (or ever as far I think). Her name was Thuringwethil and Luthien was disguised as her when she came to the Island of werewolves in the Silm. not in the least to be confused with Ungoliant __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

09-05-2002, 02:34 PM	#134
Bertuthiel Sapling Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 14	OOOhhhh! You're referring to the fell bat-form! An interesting thought that it might be able to change into a "vampirewoman". Never thunka that. __________________ Evil were the Cats of Queen Beruthiel. "Max! Zap! Oden, get off me! Agggghhhhh!"

09-05-2002, 02:57 PM	#135
UnStashable Enting Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 52	Ummm now im confused (fell bat form?, change into vampirewoman?) __________________ This elevator only goes to the basement, and sombody made an awful mess down there

09-05-2002, 05:55 PM	#136
Caleb Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: I'll never tell. Posts: 37	Thats because you dont understand. You must understand to no longer be confused. __________________ -Caleb

10-02-2002, 01:40 AM	#138
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	LOTR is fine the way it is. Even though the Fellowship was unbalanced in terms of gender, I would never want it to be changed. Incidentally, there are famale dwarves, just not very many. That's why Dwarves reproduce very slowly. They don't look exactly the same as men, they have much less whiskers. A woman-dwarves side-whiskers are very attractive to men. Luthien Tinuviel is the most kick ass woman ever! (In LOTR)

10-02-2002, 08:17 PM	#139
durin's bane Lady of Westernesse Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Canada (Help! Our parliament building is melting!) Posts: 761	dwarf women must have been the first bearded ladies... cough cough a female character in the fellowship wouldn't of been bad... I could imagine Eowyn replacing Aragorn. for some unknown reason, i don't like aragorn. __________________ Yada, yada, yada

10-02-2002, 09:56 PM	#140
Nurvingiel Co-President of Entmoot Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 8,397	How it is. Dwarf women are supposed to be like that. They're not wrong for being different. They exhibit a character that humans would find unattractive, but human values do not apply to them - Dwarf values do. I might be an Elf, but someone has to stick up for Dwarf women around here. Why is it that you don't like Aragorn? I'm curious, and I hope no one dumps on you for not liking him. It's a perfectly valid feeling, plus it generates more debate But maybe we should start a new thread about that.

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