Religious beliefs/Former Frodo and Sam thread

[Finmandos12]

While carbon14 dating could be inaccurate because of the flood, they usually use Uranium- Thorium dating, which would not have been messed up because of the Flood.
For some solid evidence of the flood, afro-elf, read the May 2001 issue of National Geographic (an evolutionary magazine). It has an article about an expedition in the Black Sea by Robert ballard, discoverer of the Titanic.

[afro-elf]

Darth you never got back to me on this



quote:
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In OT times when you died you went to hell
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where in the bible does it say that?

Just because it was a different time you condone

Happy shall he be who takes your little ones
and dashes them against the rock!"
Psalms 137:9
.

DT3:6
And we utterly destroyed them... utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

[afro-elf]

Fin

i'm aware of mr.ballard


Evidence of *A* great flood,( not a universal flood)
perhaps caused by melting glaciers bursting through the Bosporus straight some 7,000 years ago, has been discovered off the coast of Turkey by Robert Ballard (who found the remains of the Titanic)

on a total side note i've been to turkey twice the bosporus is quite nice


The Biblical flood is due to rain, not a bursting dam. As archeological anthropologist John Alden notes

...the story in the Bible is clear -- it rained for weeks before Noah's flood, and after it stopped raining the floodwaters receded. The Black Sea flood wasn't caused by rain, and after the water rose it never went away. And neither [the Sumerian nor the Biblical] story mentions the most dramatic consequence of the Black Sea flood, which turned fresh water into salt. Noah's flood, in short, doesn't sound anything like the inundation of the Black Sea.



do not forget about the other problems that i listed

[afro-elf]

Mathron

give me about a week hopefully sooner to get back to you on the problem of induction

ramadan is starting and it places the class schedule in a complete disarray changes the time frame to prepare the kids of exams

[Mathron]

No problem - take your time.

[Darth Tater]

I keep finding myself in this debate yet I really shouldn't be since I'm an admin. Anyways, In OT times only 2 (or was it three, can't remember) ppl went to heaven, which was closed to man till Jesus reopened it By taking on our sins.

You're explanasion of the tree is silly. It would have totally dissintigrated in the thousands of years that scientists say it took for the layers to build up. There is no way they could have built up around it unless it was an instanious thing

[Sakata]

Oops, my mistake, I was looking at Psalms 136, 137 does indeed say that, but you must understand that is in not god saying go bash your babys against rocks, This psalm is David telling about what he felt when he was beside the rivers of Babylon as a prisoner thinking of Jerusalem. David was pouring out his fealings before God, his anger towards his captors and his craving for revenge. It is obevious that God does not want christians to go aroung killing babys, for he says thou shalt not kill. You took the time to look up all the translations in all the different bibles Afro-elf, did you not read the whole psalm?

[afro-elf]

Darth

not so
where do you find fossiled things?

In the ground buried surrounded by layers of earth.


I"VE found fossiled remains of wood on the surface


there have been finds of shifts where remains of different times have been together

darth wrote: In OT times only 2 (or was it three, can't remember) ppl went to heaven, which was closed to man till Jesus reopened it By taking on our sins.

But you said that people went to hell. not going to heaven doesn't mean going to hell. i believe the Jews the people who the OT was about , thought you went to Sheol. not sure on the spelling. and i would like more info on this

sakata

his anger towards his captors and his craving for revenge. It is obevious that God does not want christians to go aroung killing babys, for he says thou shalt not kill. You took the time to look up all the translations in all the different bibles Afro-elf, did you not read the whole psalm?

you place upon me words i never said: I NEVER said GOD said do that


i made that post about psalm 137:9 several times

one was to show the problems of taking things literally or out of context

the other was asking darth about his condoning of certain actions

even with him being angered isnt dashing little ones against the rocks a TAD extreme?


as far as god not wanting to kill

for he says thou shalt not kill

NUM 15;35-36
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp
And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.


NUM
21:34
And the LORD said unto Moses, Fear him not: for I have delivered him into thy hand, and all his people, and his land; and thou shalt do to him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.

21:35
So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land.



NUM
25:16
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

25:17
Vex the Midianites, and smite them:


DT 7:2
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them



Kill any prophets or "dreamers of dreams" if they say or dream the wrong things. Dt.13:1-5
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Dt.13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Dt.13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Dt.17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Dt.17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Dt.18:20
Kill all the men and boys in the cities that God "delivers into your hands," but keep the women for yourself. Dt.20:13-15
Kill everything that breathes in the cities that God gives you for an inheritance. Dt.20:16
Kill rebellious or disobedient sons. Dt.21:18-21
Women, be sure to keep the tokens of your virginity. Otherwise the men of your city may stone you to death. Dt.22:13-21
Kill adulterers. Dt.22:22
Kill rape victims if they fail to cry out loud enough. Dt.22:23-34


did god command these things?

[Darth Tater]

I've already addressed "Thou shalt not murder." Sheol = hell. For more info on the scientific stuff (i'm no expert) I recommend "Genesis, Creation, and Early Man." Never actually read the whole book myself, it's a bit deep for me, but I've spoken with the editor/compiler/occasional author who put it together. He's a brilliant monk and at least in speech can put things in simple terms. It's published by the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood

[afro-elf]

I'll see if I can dig up some info on the book you mentioned. But being stuck in the desert it may take awhile


as far as murder not necessarily meaning killing fine


but the things I just listed seem murderous to me at least.

[easterlinge]

Whoaaaaa...... what do you mean, in Old Testament times, everyone went to hell? What's the point of all those prophets then? Why all those laws? Why follow any commandment if you're going to Hell anyway?

[galadriel]

A good Jew doesn't follow the laws because they don't want to go to hell. They do it because they're supposed to, and it's the right thing to do, and following God's law makes their life overall better. Of course, no one's that virtuous, but it's a nice ideal to aspire to.

The Old Testament hardly ever mentions hell. Instead, you atoned for your sins. Biblical Jews atoned for their sins in various ways, but generally atonement meant sacrificing an animal on an altar. Occasionally you would simply pay money or barter for it, for instance if you accidentally killed one of your neighbor's sheep. For the more serious crimes, you sacrificed your own life. So, if you think about it, even a murderer who gave his own life willingly might have a chance at getting into heaven, since he'd atoned. (I could get into a spiel about how this relates to Christianity, but I'll spare you all for now. It's late. I'm tired.)

In a nutshell, no, Old Testament people did not go to hell according to the Jews of that time, as long as you were faithful to God and the Jewish religion. I'm not quite sure what the criteria is nowadays, since there's no more sacrificing and Jewish ideas about the afterlife are varied, due to time and coloring by more recent Jewish folklore and tradition. I think it's still basically the same: good religious people go to heaven, bad people don't.

[Sakata]

Originally posted by afro-elf


you place upon me words i never said: I NEVER said GOD said do that

When did I ever accuse you of saying that? I was just explaining that that was not god's will.

As for all the rest of your quotes, It might take me a while to get back to you, I am in my Junior year of high school and I have 2 research papers due, along with studying for the PSAT *sigh* I could debate (that is what we're doing right?) religon all night, but i'll have to take a rain-check

[afro-elf]

Sakata

When did I ever accuse you of saying that? I was just explaining that that was not god's will.

no problem. i read too much into it.

As for all the rest of your quotes, It might take me a while to get back to you, I am in my Junior year of high school and I have 2 research papers due, along with studying for the PSAT *sigh* I could debate (that is what we're doing right?) religon all night, but i'll have to take a rain-check

i'm in a similar boat at the opposite end I've gotta prepare exams


yes this a debate

good luck on your tests and I await your return

[Darkside Spirit]

And while we're awaiting her (his?) return we can pour over this:

http://stardestroyer.net/Creationism...errorism.shtml

Please don't flame me, but I know it's a pretty contentious piece, so if you have to, I will understand

[Finmandos12]

As to how people got to heaven in OT times...

They had to trust that God would send a Messiah. They sacrificed animals to atone for their sins. When Jesus dies, he was the sacrifice for all who accepted him as their savior.

As to when God told the Israelites to kill people...

Most of those verses you quoted were about killing the enemies they had defeated. If they had not killed them, their descendants would have uprisen against Israel later. Also, they would have intermarried with the Jews and introduced their religions to them. It was not like they were innocent. Their religion included such things as child sacrifice, prostitution, etc.

[Mathron]

Again, that was not the point. Should we kill all of our enemies, all who might potentially be our enemies, and all of their women and children?

[afro-elf]

what would happen if america had went in an just tactically nuked afghanstan or iran 10 tens ago

think of all the uproar about killing the woman and children

what would happen if the respone was an answer like you gave

It was not like they were innocent

why do you equate the enemies of isreal with the most barbaric pagan rituals

have you looked at the historical evidence for this?


BUT lo and behold did god just say thou shall not kill?

[ryan]

First off, theres no reason to nuke afganistan, the taliban basically doesn't exist there anymore (or won't for much longer at this rate..). If one of us did decide to nuke the other, itd turn out like the cuban missile crisis in the 60s.. he with the biggest balls and best poker face will win.

[afro-elf]

First off, theres no reason to nuke afganistan,

the point is not about nuking afganistan

the point is about killing innocent people



finmandos said

Most of those verses you quoted were about killing the enemies they had defeated. If they had not killed them, their descendants would have uprisen against Israel later. Also, they would have intermarried with the Jews and introduced their religions to them. It was not like they were innocent

there is the already defeated part

well lets GO GET UM BOYS. better kill all the filthy afgans before they grow up and kill us

come on


hum sounds like genocide

are you at all revolted by the nazi treatment of jews
or there treatment of anyone they conquered

or the isreali treatment of palestinians

or america's prior history of native americans and slaves

of stalins starvation of ukraine

the armenian cleansing in turkey

the ethinc cleansing in the balkans