The Singers Thread

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Varnafindë

It's interesting to hear, Tessar, how you're identifying your own problem areas and planning systematically how to work on them! I think you will do well

I agree, Varnafindë


Now Tessar, when you have your MET debut, you'll have to let all of us know!

[Tessar]

Thanks guys . The real test is to see if I actually can fix my problems. Being a good trouble shooter isn't much use if you can't actually debug the system, to use a computer metaphor .

[Tessar]

I saw my voice teacher today (not for a lesson... but since we're both section leaders for the church) and we discussed the support thing briefly.

His stance is that you DO tighten the stomach, from the low abs like she was saying, but that you then also tighten the stomach and you float the ribs.

I have to say, when I did that I did feel like my voice was more solid, but singing in church is not a great place to be testing out new things.

He said that if you don't tighten the stomach that you're cutting yourself off from your support, so... I dunno. I'm going to have to research this myself I think. He was saying that a famous soprano, Sherill Millins, and Nathan Gunn all gave master classes that he want to and all three of them told students that the stomach must be tight, not relaxed.


We'll see . We're going to have a lesson this Wednesday, so I guess we'll play around with it then and see how things go.

[Voronwen]

There are supposedly two 'schools of thought' about this: One where the stomach is tight/held in, and the other where it's expanded/held out.

My teacher says that somewhere in the middle is actually true (and, having tried both other ways, i'm inclined to agree with her). The ideal is what she calls "flexible support" - energized muscles in the abdomen, yes, but not rigidly (closed) nor loosely (open) held. Instead, the abdominal support muscles need to be free to go back and forth between the extremes, at need. Think of this in relation to your "with ease" phrase. Again, it's about the right kind of tension.

[Tessar]

SO HERE'S WHAT WENT DOWN.

In my lesson today we had a number of breakthroughs.

One was fixing my consonants (particularly my high-note consonants). We discovered that I'm merging the consonants and the vowels together, which makes my attacks overblow the cords on high notes that begin with consonants. We fixed it so that I attack the consonant and the vowel kicks in a split second later... it sounds so awkward to describe, but it sounds very good. The consonants are coming from the very front of my mouth, and then after just the tiniest gap (like... a split second) the vowel kicks in with a reenergized sound.

So... the best way I can think to describe it is that instead of singing, 'call' I would sing 'c-all' (well... more like k-all). Like there's just the tiniest gap. The air flow never stops for the gap, of course, and in fact doing it makes my line much more legato and connected than when I would slap the vowel and consonant together.



Secondly was the support. I had been shying away this week from keeping the ribs fully out because I felt like my back was tensing up, especially at the small of my back. My teacher said that's perfectly normal, particularly at first, and that if he's singing something meant for a tenor, or several baritone phrases that are very high in his voice, often times he'll start to feel like his back is cramping slightly.

When I really engaged the pressure of the ribs floating outwards, using the back and the ribs to keep all of that pressure off of my cords... oh my God, my voice felt wonderful! Unfortunately we don't have any recordings of it because he just switched offices and didn't have his recording device, but I have never sung that high tessitura with such ease.

I'm not always blessed enough to be able to fix my own problems, but I can always sense when something is 'right' in my voice and with all of that pressure held off of my cords my voice was DEFINITELY right. I could feel that everything was exactly where it needed to be and my instrument was seamless all the way through.

We've discovered that my first great teacher, the bass, basically put my voice entirely in place. The cords are doing exactly what they need to do. All of the problems we've been fixing involve other things like lack of support, diction problems, jaw/tongue problems... my throat is fine, and my registers are all smoothly connected already from chest into middle, then middle to head, etc., the work going on right now is to build a foundation that supports the freedom of my cords.


So he said my big job for now is to strengthen the muscles of my back and learn how to keep my ribs floated... he said weight lifting wont help much, I just have to log in lots and lots of singing hours. Floating isn't even the right word for what I'm having to do with my ribs... it's more like I have wings on the side of my body and I'm having to keep them extended. It's not exactly like forcefully pushing against something, but I really feel like I have wings and they're having to be willfully spread to keep the pressure entirely off of my cords.

Willful floatation of the ribs? Have I perhaps coined a new imagery idea?



One cool thing is that today we managed to really engage an idea my first teacher gave me... he said men, particularly baritones and basses, have to make the voice 'roar' all of the time, and especially as they ascend towards and beyond Middle C. Without that 'roar' the cords don't stay together entirely and you loose resonance.

Today I was making that happen. It's not like singing loudly, or pushing on the voice, but it's like when you see a lion do one of those yawning roars where they're not angry, they're just letting their voice out. It does feel like roaring .

A lot of it has to do with the support. I'm able to bring chest voice up a lot higher (of course still governed by head voice), which is what I need to do. I shouldn't be dropping it off at all till I hit about an E4, where as my voice was wanting to do it as early as Middle C. It's still blending, naturally... almost nothing in my voice is pure chest sensation, but the mix needed more chest than I was able to give it.



What excited me was that even before any of the breakthroughs we sang a little, and he stopped me after a few phrases and said something to the effect of, "I can't believe you think you've knocked your voice out of order, it has never been more focused or sounded as good as it does right now. You're just noticing things you've never heard before."

He thinks my voice is growing a little bit, too. He said unless he misses his guess I'm going to have a fairly large voice some day, although right now it definitely hangs out on the middling side . I don't have a small voice, like I've said, but it's not large.


One thing I love about my teacher is that he's not only an incredible technician, but he has no desire to put me in a slot. He said that right now he thinks my voice is headed towards lyric baritone, but that he wouldn't be surprised either if after a while of good support/technique becoming habit a new area of my voice opens up either on the higher or lower end. He's admitted that some day I might either become a bass-baritone, or a very high baritone... maybe even tenor or bass, but I love that he's just working on forming my technique rather than, "Oh you can/can't sing this aria because you're a [insert fach here]." I can understand doing that with an older singer, but not with someone in college.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

The consonants are coming from the very front of my mouth

That's where they should be. Those of us born in the States especially need to work on this (though i had the slight advantage of having been born and raised in New England, where there are no drawled dipthongs or pressed-on R's and L's and the like).

Have I perhaps coined a new imagery idea?

Perhaps, with the "wings" idea! Something you can pass on to your future students?

One cool thing is that today we managed to really engage an idea my first teacher gave me... he said men, particularly baritones and basses, have to make the voice 'roar' all of the time, and especially as they ascend towards and beyond Middle C. Without that 'roar' the cords don't stay together entirely and you loose resonance.

Today I was making that happen. It's not like singing loudly, or pushing on the voice, but it's like when you see a lion do one of those yawning roars where they're not angry, they're just letting their voice out. It does feel like roaring .

...And we ladies meeeeeww!

What excited me was that even before any of the breakthroughs we sang a little, and he stopped me after a few phrases and said something to the effect of, "I can't believe you think you've knocked your voice out of order, it has never been more focused or sounded as good as it does right now. You're just noticing things you've never heard before."

Excellent!

One thing I love about my teacher is that he's not only an incredible technician, but he has no desire to put me in a slot. He said that right now he thinks my voice is headed towards lyric baritone, but that he wouldn't be surprised either if after a while of good support/technique becoming habit a new area of my voice opens up either on the higher or lower end. He's admitted that some day I might either become a bass-baritone, or a very high baritone... maybe even tenor or bass, but I love that he's just working on forming my technique rather than, "Oh you can/can't sing this aria because you're a [insert fach here]." I can understand doing that with an older singer, but not with someone in college.

This is a good thing, at your age. Vocally, you're still growing!

[Tessar]

I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the support thing I mentioned from today's lesson. I have to add, though, that I did feel a lot of what you talked about (and what I've heard others talking about before) with the 'flexible strength' when I was keeping my ribs out. My teacher said something along the same lines, sort of amending what he had told me on Sunday, to say that everything is flexing but that he never locks the muscles since that's certain vocal death .



I'm also curious to hear about your voice. How are things going? Still keeping the high range, or any back sliding, or improvements forward... anything? I was thrilled to hear about your reconnecting to your high notes.

When did you say you're meeting with your voice teacher again?

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

My teacher said something along the same lines, sort of amending what he had told me on Sunday, to say that everything is flexing but that he never locks the muscles since that's certain vocal death .

Yes, this is true! Those muscles should *never* be locked. It's an energized flexibility without rigidity. Without showing you in person what i do it would be nearly impossible to explain, but it should feel very natural and not at all artificially forced out or anything. Again, you want the right kind of tension.

The adjustment of the muscles you're feeling in the back of the ribs is just the muscles getting used to it. They're not muscles we use in normal activities and normal exercise so yes, he's right, only through singing will they strengthen. If i understand what you're talking about, these are the muscles that lie under and in-between the ribs, so they're related to your breathing and aren't something we can see, only feel. Much like the vocal muscles, in that regard. They only become stronger by doing their specialized thing.

I'm also curious to hear about your voice. How are things going? Still keeping the high range, or any back sliding, or improvements forward... anything? I was thrilled to hear about your reconnecting to your high notes.

Oh, i am definitely still in the same good place Still have the high F's. Now that i know how to access them, they're always there now. It was all about the access, and all about not bringing up too much weight from the chest voice and just letting my voice be light, be what it is.

When did you say you're meeting with your voice teacher again?

At this point, i don't even know! She was supposed to be gone all summer, but i've emailed her recently and still, no answer. I don't know what's up with her but i hope all is well.

But i've actually been considering finding a new teacher. As much as i've loved working with her, it's a long haul (2 hour drive one way for every lesson) which makes it a whole-day trip to a different city which derails my entire weekend time with my husband.

Aside from personal reasons though, i have found that this summer i have made more positive leaps and strides on my own than under her tutelage. Now this is in no way trying to say that i don't need a teacher or know more than the teacher But, that i think perhaps she was teaching some things that were getting me to sing too heavily, thus causing me to lose some of the flexibility that was crucial to accessing my extreme high register. Not good for a coloratura, obviously (and, i always was one before, as i was being groomed toward roles like Tytania, etc - my top just needed work, and i'm convinced that my musical theater background wasn't helping me any with that!). When a light voice is taught to 'sing more heavily', it does not become a heavier voice - what it becomes is a light voice with less flexibility and a truncated range. You lose your "money notes" which are one of the biggest selling points for a coloratura! Now, i am not pursuing a career so marketability is not a big deal to me, but i still want to be able to have all of the proper flexibility and range that a voice of my type should have, and be able to sing the music that a voice of my type should be singing.

[Tessar]

But i've actually been considering finding a new teacher. As much as i've loved working with her, it's a long haul (2 hour drive one way for every lesson) which makes it a whole-day trip to a different city which derails my entire weekend time with my husband.

Wow, that's quite a drive!!!! O_o

Aside from personal reasons though, i have found that this summer i have made more positive leaps and strides on my own than under her tutelage.

It does sound like it's time to switch teachers, then! I definitely believe that you have to be with the right teacher for you. The one your with might be someone else's ticket to perfect technique, but for you maybe she's just not right any more.

When a light voice is taught to 'sing more heavily', it does not become a heavier voice - what it becomes is a light voice with less flexibility and a truncated range. You lose your "money notes" which are one of the biggest selling points for a coloratura! Now, i am not pursuing a career so marketability is not a big deal to me, but i still want to be able to have all of the proper flexibility and range that a voice of my type should have, and be able to sing the music that a voice of my type should be singing.

Actually this is something my teacher and I have discussed a few times. He had a coloratura who was trying to be a large lyric voice for a long time, and because she was young it didn't hurt her too much... but he kept telling her she was a coloratura and he worked her into the high notes and got her winning competitions with coloratura rep. Apparently that didn't make her happy, though!

Then she went to the New England Conservatory and tried to tell her new teacher she was a lyric, and after a few lessons he apparently told her she was a coloratura just like her old teacher had said . So now she's singing professionally and it's as a coloratura because she finally gave in and decided that she wanted to be a professional singer more than she wanted to hang on to wishing she was a lyric. Apparently she wanted to do roles like Mimi and whatnot.

i still want to be able to have all of the proper flexibility and range that a voice of my type should have, and be able to sing the music that a voice of my type should be singing.

I could not agree more. As much as a part of me would love to suddenly, magically transform into a Tenor voice... I would much, MUCH rather be a great baritone than try to turn myself into a fake tenor.

I want to be truly great at what I do... if that means I can become a professional singer then that's fantastic. That's a part of the goal. But if it just means that I have the best voice I can have... then so be it . Like you've said before, singing is just such a huge part of me that there's no way I could give it up.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

But if it just means that I have the best voice I can have... then so be it .

I cannot agree more!

I've just wanted to do what was best for my voice at each juncture. I think you're right, the 'best teacher' in the whole world still might not be the 'best teacher' for you. My current teacher is a mezzo. Maybe this has been the problem? Like you, i had one great teacher who 'put my voice in place'. She was a soprano. If i could find another coloratura to work with, that would be the greatest!

Like you've said before, singing is just such a huge part of me that there's no way I could give it up.

And this is exactly why i still do it.

[Tessar]

I just did some more practicing and now I'm sweating, but my voice (particularly my throat!) has never felt better! In fact... never mind just not hurting myself when I sing, it feels better now than it did when I started practicing!

I'm being careful not to overdo it of course, but I have to say my F's are coming out much better than before. It's still not quite right, but I could literally feel my throat and my ribs modifying a little every time I'd sustain the F... It was a little weird, but a good feeling. Got a tiiiiny bit easier every time, too. It's not like it has been in the past, where I feel like I'm just slamming up against a brick wall over and over, waiting for something to click... I could feel things gradually shifting towards the correct position.

Then when I did my attack exercise with the floating ribs I could hear my voice bouncing back off the walls much louder, and with much more.. richness than it has before. Good stuff! It felt easier in the throat as well, although of course my ribs/back are working like mad right now to maintain the floating position.

One thing I noticed as well is that my mid/low notes haven't really gained volume, but they seem more... energized, I guess? Energized or forceful, I think either word works, without much added volume. That's great! I always struggle to make the low notes sound energized... they're always pretty, but not always exciting to hear. So hopefully this new support will let me shine more on the Sergent rep for Pirates, since all of his stuff is pretty low.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I just did some more practicing and now I'm sweating, but my voice (particularly my throat!) has never felt better! In fact... never mind just not hurting myself when I sing, it feels better now than it did when I started practicing!

Aha, this is exactly how it feels to me too these days, after my own breakthroughs. I'm no longer bringing weight into my higher registers, so i can sing and sing (even hanging around in the stratosphere!) and still, the voice doesn't get so tired. If anything, it feels better.

It's not like it has been in the past, where I feel like I'm just slamming up against a brick wall over and over, waiting for something to click... I could feel things gradually shifting towards the correct position.

Again, i can relate, though for an entirely different reason.

Then when I did my attack exercise with the floating ribs I could hear my voice bouncing back off the walls much louder, and with much more.. richness than it has before. Good stuff!

Excellent!

As for me, i am not even worrying about how 'loud' i am or anything right now (and if anything, for me it's been about giving my voice permission to *not* be rich ). I am just doing what i know is best, relying on a soft, cushiony-light placement and flexible support. I've gone back to the placement that i had when i was with my former teacher (the soprano, who was a real lyric and used to tell me "I don't have those little high notes, no way no how!" But she at least knew how to get me to access them!) and everything's just fallen into place. As a high soprano i don't need to worry about things like 'big' and 'loud' because the frequency of the pitches will make them carry nonetheless. And you know what? When i am singing this way, i can hear myself 'in my head' even less. This is also how i know that it's all placed forward enough. All that resounds in my head is a kind of fluffy cloud of high sound (not to be confused with an 'airy' sound), but to my ears inside my head, that's all that matters, and the pitch. All else can only be heard with a recorder or with outside ears anyway. So i just trust that this sound carries, because pitches like that can't help it anyway, leaving the rest to the nature of accoustics.

One thing I noticed as well is that my mid/low notes haven't really gained volume, but they seem more... energized, I guess? Energized or forceful, I think either word works, without much added volume. That's great! I always struggle to make the low notes sound energized... they're always pretty, but not always exciting to hear. So hopefully this new support will let me shine more on the Sergent rep for Pirates, since all of his stuff is pretty low.

I hope i can hear even a little snippet of you in Pirates!

But i think what you're describing may be unique to male voices, along with the 'roar' thing. The word 'forceful' sounds like something that would damage my own delicate voice But it's possible that i'm just misunderstanding what you're saying - Are you saying that it sounds forceful, or that it feels forceful to produce this sound??? If it's the latter, then i definitely can't relate to it.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

But i think what you're describing may be unique to male voices, along with the 'roar' thing. The word 'forceful' sounds like something that would damage my own delicate voice But it's possible that i'm just misunderstanding what you're saying - Are you saying that it sounds forceful, or that it feels forceful to produce this sound??? If it's the latter, then i definitely can't relate to it.

I really think the roar is unique to the male voice. I never heard my voice teacher even hint at describing a female voice that way.


Haha, it doesn't feel forceful at all. But the sound is one with oomph and energy in it... it doesn't sound 'forced' but it's like a solid pillar of sound rather than just being... I guess almost a 'lazy' sound.

[Tessar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpWRlDQn1aw

This is Robert Merrill, and he had resonance and 'roar' to go on for days . If you listen when he hits the high note around 25 seconds in, you can hear a bit of that 'roar' sound. Do you hear how it's sort of like a lion's roar? It doesn't sound scream-y at all, and it doesn't sound forced, but it's very... roar-like? O_o Am I being clear at all?

[Voronwen]

Haha, i do hear what you mean! And yes, i think that *is* unique to male voices. Maybe very, very large dramatic female voices have something similar, too. But i am VERY far from being that!

And i think i know what you're referring to by a sound with energy in it. I think this happens for all voices when 1. the support is good, and 2. you're singing in your optimal range. I know for a fact that if, like your fellow student, i tried to sing Mimi's aria, it would just sound limp and uninteresting because that's not the optimal part of my voice. Arias of that type sit too low to be interesting in my voice. But something like Tornami a vagheggiar is optimal for me (i've performed this piece several times).

[Tessar]

OMG!!! Tornami a vagheggiar is one of my most favorite arias EVAH!!!! O_o I lurv it to death.

As I think I've said before, if I could be any voice in the world I would probably wish to be a soprano. Sopranos get the best arias ever.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

OMG!!! Tornami a vagheggiar is one of my most favorite arias EVAH!!!! O_o I lurv it to death.

I love it, too, and love singing it! It's just so HAPPY that one can't help herself from adding E flats everywhere!

As I think I've said before, if I could be any voice in the world I would probably wish to be a soprano. Sopranos get the best arias ever.

We light sopranos get the fun fluffy stuff, for sure! But the REALLY fun stuff goes to the bigger sopranos and mezzos - all that tragedy! I wanted to be a mezzo. LOL

But i must say that i am having fun embracing the fluff!

[Voronwen]

But now i have to wonder, Tessar - if you could sing any role, what would it be?

I always wanted to sing Donna Elvira in Don Giovanni. She just gets to be so catty and terrible! But face it, i would never sing it in this lifetime. Nobody wants to hear a light voice singing Ah, fuggi il traditor! Even i have to laugh.

[Tessar]

Hmm... I don't know! I'll have to think about that one a little. I'm not sure that I have a 'dream' role. I might like to be the poet from La Boheme, mostly because Che Gelida Manina is one of my favorite arias ever.


I feel bad because I didn't practice on Thursday or Friday, I just sang a bit. Been feeling sort of weird and low on energy. I am VERY happy with how my voice is coming along, though! This new supporting seems to be doing wonders for my voice, and we'll see if it holds up to three Sunday services in a row . That's always the real test for me on a technique I've been working on... does it stand up to heavy duty, long singing?

I'm going to need help with the consonant thing... it works, but I'm not sure exactly when to use it. I can't imagine it's for every single consonant. Maybe just starting consonants, or in stressed syllables.

It has made me realize why I sometimes do funny, lisping consonants though, when I sing (and sometimes when I talk too fast): I want to put my consonants in the same place as my vowels, which isn't right at all. I'm working on putting them forwards in the front of my mouth, but it still feels a little awkward because you spit the consonant out then flip back for the vowel. It's a little frustrating, but I'll get it.

I'm going to finish memorizing my Pirates of Penzance stuff in three more days, then start putting it in my voice. I haven't seriously sung anything out of it yet, although I've got it memorized to speak and hum... I think I have about 20/22 days till rehearsals start, so I've got lots of time yet. I was wanting to wait till I had a lesson to start working on it, and now that I've had one I can .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Hmm... I don't know! I'll have to think about that one a little. I'm not sure that I have a 'dream' role. I might like to be the poet from La Boheme, mostly because Che Gelida Manina is one of my favorite arias ever.

Ah Hmm... on the subject of La Boheme... i don't know why so many sopranos want to sing Mimi. I find her music rather boring. I'd prefer to sing Musetta myself! I'd just have a lot more fun with that role (and i've heard of coloraturas being cast on occasion!).

I feel bad because I didn't practice on Thursday or Friday, I just sang a bit. Been feeling sort of weird and low on energy.

Don't feel bad! My allergies/sinusitis have prevented me from practicing since Thursday myself!

I am VERY happy with how my voice is coming along, though!

Great!

That's always the real test for me on a technique I've been working on... does it stand up to heavy duty, long singing?

Yes, that IS the real test!