How to take a Ring from an unwilling Ring-wielder? - crazy ideas

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

But Gor does then not the line of whom we think the WK is, not go beyond in lineage in terms of rights to the Kingship beyond any claim of Elendil prior to the massacre of Numenor innocent and guilty alike?

(correct me if i am wrong but have you not yourself not argued this very thing elsewhere?)

best, BB

The Lords of Andúnië were the descendents of Silmariën, the eldest child of Tar-Elendil, the fourth king of Númenor; and had the law of first-born regardless of sex that Tar-Aldarion put in place so that his daughter might become the first Ruling Queen been in effect, the House of Valandil, first Lord of Andúnië, would have been the ruling house. In fact, there is some textual evidence that, at least at one point, Tolkien made Elendil’s elder brother the betrothed of MÃ*riel, daughter of Tar-Palantir; in this telling, the brother dies without explanation and Pharazôn married MÃ*riel, his first cousin, and made himself king.

All I am suggesting is that the Witch-king saw himself as a king. Had he been an ambitious prince whose brother became king (as I believe he was), that might have made him more susceptible to becoming ensnared by a Ring of Power. It would explain his hatred for the House of Elendil, in particular.

[jammi567]

wow, new entmoot record of 48 posts in one day, probally only beaten by the teacup cafe.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by jammi567

Ah, Gordis, i have read it three times, but i've had so much on my mind lately (GCSE's for the past two years), that it practically drove everything to do with tolkein out of my head, so i may be hazy or forgettable of most things.

don't be brow-beaten Jammi!

it's good to have you here!

[jammi567]

i know, just stating for future reference, in case i get something like this wrong again.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

All I am suggesting is that the Witch-king saw himself as a king. Had he been an ambitious prince whose brother became king (as I believe he was), that might have made him more susceptible to becoming ensnared by a Ring of Power. It would explain his hatred for the House of Elendil, in particular.

Well, no need to explain hatred for Amandil and his heirs. He had betrayed the King - anyone from the main line would have seen it this way.

As for the WK identity, you choose Minastir's son, Alcuin but I always had another idea.

There was this change of the Law - the one made by Tar Aldarion. Instead of Ancalime, another one - the male heir- should have been King (and it is told who exactly in the UT). So, at any given time in Numenor's history, there was always a person who had the right to be King, if the law had not been changed. There you have a whole line of frustrated people - father to son. And rightfully frustrated.
I think we have to look there.

[Alcuin]

Guys, there is no legal issue here about who is the King of the Númenóreans in Middle-earth according to the old laws of succession.

The Witch-king, even were his father King of Númenor, never had any claim to any throne unless his father created him an underking, and there is no evidence for that. By the old laws that govern European succession, he would have been a royal duke (or an earl, under the Anglo-Saxon rules). He was not and could not become king unless every other prior claimant between him and the throne died. (Edit - Like Richard III.)

Elendil had every right to be High-King of the Númenóreans! His house, Andúnië, was the senior house of Númenor, and it was effectively the senior royal dukedom. His ancestor Elatan of Andúnië, who married Silmariën, was probably the leader of the First House of the Edain in Númenor: in effect, Elatan was already the king of the First House, so that marriage re-united the First and Third Houses.

The House of Elros was wiped out in the Akallabêth, and the remaining Númenóreans could chose whomever they liked as king. Elendil had not only the greatest claim, he was unopposed among the Faithful for this role and already recognized as their leader. The Faithful were right to reject any claim by the Witch-king, assuming he dared to make any – which would require that he publicly reveal who he was and make some explanation about how he managed to live about 1500 years. And if the Council of the faithful Númenóreans could show that he was a Ringwraith, that would disqualify him from becoming King: he was tainted and under the shadow and control of Sauron, who brought about the destruction of the Númenor in the first place.

You can’t argue that Elendil was “not the rightful king.� I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that’s just specious. (Edit – well, I guess you can if you want to, but it’s really kind of a waste of time, and you have to completely ignore the rules of succession. Tolkien knew them very well, better, that I do, and he made certain that Elendil had a rock-solid claim.)

If you want to argue that the Witch-king wanted to be king, and might have set himself up in that role if he had not been killed on Pelennor and Sauron had won the war, then I agree. But he had no rightful claim to the throne of the Faithful Númenóreans.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

There was this change of the Law - the one made by Tar Aldarion. Instead of Ancalime, another one - the male heir- should have been King (and it is told who exactly in the UT). So, at any given time in Numenor's history, there was always a person who had the right to be King, if the law had not been changed. There you have a whole line of frustrated people - father to son. And rightfully frustrated.
I think we have to look there.

Thank you. I have a particular interest in this subject. I will pursue that line.

[jammi567]

maybe by making a new thread (although this one has about four or five divulgant topics that should've really been made into new threads, but never mind now). sighs.

[Butterbeer]

You can’t argue that Elendil was “not the rightful king.� I’m not trying to pick a fight or anything, but that’s just specious.

that sounds spurious indeed!

[Butterbeer]

Guys...

and Gals if you please Alcuin! |or are you denouncing the historically stated Numenorean laws?

best BB

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

that sounds spurious indeed!

I did add an edit that that post:

well, I guess you can if you want to, but it’s really kind of a waste of time, and you have to completely ignore the rules of succession. Tolkien knew them very well, better, that I do, and he made certain that Elendil had a rock-solid claim.)

You can pick your fight with Tolkien, but it doesn’t look like a promising one to me. *Sigh* Do as you will... but I’d rather spend our time more constructively.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by jammi567

maybe by making a new thread (although this one has about four or five divulgant topics that should've really been made into new threads, but never mind now). sighs.

heh. seriously - NO!! ..it gets too fragmented and you can never debate anything that way. That ways leads to to the death of entmoot and debate IMO.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

and Gals if you please Alcuin! |or are you denouncing the historically stated Numenorean laws?

best BB

Butterbeer, you’re not trying to steer this argument toward politics, are you? Please don’t do that. It is unworthy of you… I hope.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

I did add an edit that that post:

You can pick your fight with Tolkien, but it doesn’t look like a promising one to me. *Sigh* Do as you will... but I’d rather spend our time more constructively.

heh

cross post then i guess?? what are the chances of that tonight huh?

But bear this in mind it is CANON that the perecieved rights of Arargorn are as seen from the red book of Westmarch ... and no revision can alter that fact - thus we have a dilemma - and my poijt ios JRRT is dead but he lives on in our debate.

Thus, how can it be pointless?

Else, why debate at all on anything??

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

heh. seriously - NO!! ..it gets too fragmented and you can never debate anything that way. That ways leads to to the death of entmoot and debate IMO.

i guess so...i guess.

[CAB]

Where did all these posts come from?!
Well this may be old news now but...

Originally Posted by Gordis

ALL swords shatter that pierce a nazgul. The fact that the sword shattered on a wight doesn't tell us anything about the blade- only about a similar spell. As for the Black Shadow - it was specific for nazgul and doesn't even necessitate a direct contact with them - Faramir got it without hitting any.

I can’t agree with what you are saying here, Gordis. First, we don’t know that Merry’s sword shattered. He himself said that it burned away.

Second, it isn’t clear to me that the Black Shadow and the shock associated with striking the Witch King is the same thing.

Third, since Frodo didn’t have this shock when he struck the wight + the fact that there is very little to indicate that the wights had protective “spells� or “powers� similar to the Witch King + that it seems that the wights attacked their victims psychologically rather than physically, so they had little need for such protection = blades probably weren’t destroyed after hitting wights as they were after hitting the Witch King.

So, blades hitting a wight probably weren’t automatically destroyed + the sword Frodo used was unquestionably very old + there is no indication that Frodo used a mystical sword = the sword probably broke because it was old and brittle. Anyway, that’s how I see it.

Originally Posted by Gordis

And for me, that means only one thing: the blade was deadly ONLY for the WITCH-KING (who was already killed), not for the other 8 nazgul - the same impression that I got from the new Tolkien quote I posted. And [CAB]was of the same opinion

I think you misunderstood me Gordis. I guess my posts aren’t as clear as they could be (the first part of this post probably being a good example).

To me, it is most likely that the blade would have effected all the Nazgul pretty much the same way. I think the best evidence for this is the two Nazgul on Weathertop stopping after Frodo drew the sword, as jammi pointed out. This isn’t absolute proof though, since it might have been the implications of Frodo’s possession of the sword that scared them rather than the sword itself. Also, as I said before, I doubt that Sauron would be concerned about his enemies obtaining a sword that wasn’t particularly dangerous to him, especially when these enemies were moments from certain annihilation (in his mind).

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Elendil had every right to be High-King of the Númenóreans! His house, Andúnië, was the senior house of Númenor, and it was effectively the senior royal dukedom. His ancestor Elatan of Andúnië, who married Silmariën, was probably the leader of the First House of the Edain in Númenor: in effect, Elatan was already the king of the First House, so that marriage re-united the First and Third Houses.

Well, here I disagree.
The WK may be disqualified by being a wraith, or falling under the shadow,OK there, but by BLOOD alone, he is closer to the throne than Elendil.

NOT the house of Andúnië was the senior house of Númenor, but the house of Elros - the main line.

Had Ar-Pharazon's brother survived the Downfall, by blood, he would be the rightful King, not Elendil- because he was closer to the main line.

Ar-Pharazon's hypothethic surviving brother has more right than Ar-Gimilzor's brother, the latter has more right than Tar- Atanamir's brother, and this one has more right than Tar-Ciryatan's brother.
So,
Tar - Ciryatan's brother (the WK-according to your theory) is closer to the main line, and has more right to the scepter than a descendant of Silmarien.

That is how it works in royal lines.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Alcuin

Butterbeer, you’re not trying to steer this argument toward politics, are you? Please don’t do that. It is unworthy of you… I hope.

nah not at all ... but you know our beloved Gor is a girl, nay a Lady yes?

(just mentioning Alcuin )



best, BB

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

heh

cross post then i guess?? what are the chances of that tonight huh?

But bear this in mind it is CANON that the perecieved rights of Arargorn are as seen from the red book of Westmarch ... and no revision can alter that fact - thus we have a dilemma - and my poijt ios JRRT is dead but he lives on in our debate.

Thus, how can it be pointless?

Else, why debate at all on anything??

*Exasperated* I don’t know. How many angels can dance of the head of a pin?

My apologies, ’Mooters, but this thread seems to have veered from the sublime to the silly.
-|-
Edit - posts are still coming so fast I can't keep up.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

nah not at all ... but you know our beloved Gor is a girl, nay a Lady yes?

(just mentioning Alcuin )

Yes, I am quite aware of that, and a great lady, I might add. And a friend, I hope.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Well, here I disagree.
The WK may be disqualified by being a wraith, or falling under the shadow,OK there, but by BLOOD alone, he is closer to the throne than Elendil.

NOT the house of Andúnië was the senior house of Númenor, but the house of Elros - the main line.

Had Ar-Pharazon's brother survived the Downfall, by blood, he would be the rightful King, not Elendil- because he was closer to the main line.

Ar-Pharazon's hypothethic surviving brother has more right than Ar-Gimilzor's brother, the latter has more right than Tar- Atanamir's brother, and this one has more right than Tar-Ciryatan's brother.
So,
Tar - Ciryatan's brother (the WK-according to your theory) is closer to the main line, and has more right to the scepter than a descendant of Silmarien.

That is how it works in royal lines.

Yes, but…

You can disqualify yourself from kingship (or being queen, Butterbeer… *sigh*).

After the Akallabêth, the whole House of Elros is gone with the exception of the Lord of the Úlairi. He is, in effect, the leader of the Black Númenóreans. The House of Elros has fallen, it has utterly and miserably failed in its sacred duty to lead and protect the people of Númenor, it has violated the laws of the Valar <add edit>, engaged in the worship of Morgoth and human sacrifice, made war upon the Valar themselves, <end edit> and brought down the wrath of Eru upon the whole of the Númenórean race.

The House of Elros has lost all claim to the High-Kingship. Then it falls to the House of Valandil and the Lords of Andúnië to take up that High-Kingship and lead the Númenóreans.

If nothing else, Elendil can claim with all legality that Eru Himself removed the crown from the House of Elros and its heirs.