World Politics - Page 7

Telcontar_Dunedain · 05-27-2005, 02:01 PM

You think it is wrong to have expectations?

Spock · 05-27-2005, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

You think it is wrong to have expectations?

Insofar as the above definition is concerned, yes.
To expect someone or a government to behave in a certain way in order to formulate your own development, isn't the way I choose to go; nor the way I want aid to be looked upon.

Insidious Rex · 05-27-2005, 03:23 PM

Well I expect MY OWN government (speaking as an american here...) to be far and away the number one aid giver in the world. Anything less is unnaceptable in my opinion considering our standard of living here. And no I dont care about the standard of living in Quatar or Belgium or any other country that does pretty well here. Its my tax money and I can expect it to be used for good around the globe if I want to.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-27-2005, 03:51 PM

i expect developed nations to give aid freely to developing nations, based on the value of the 1st world's economy, compared to that of the thirld world country, populations, and need, and, IMO, i do not think it is wrong for this expectation, that which would cause an end to human suffering, if however people dont agree with ending suffering, well, what more can i do....?

inked · 05-27-2005, 05:40 PM

Well, perhaps there's been more success than ya'll realize!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...628272,00.html

What's the likely impact?

***Earniel*** · 05-28-2005, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

I can't help it if we do give more and you think it is generalizing; it is a fact.

*heavy, heavy sigh*

I so wish people would stop thinking so much that every one is out to get them and see a joke for what it is...

You said that "over there" is always criticizing you. I said that we always get generalised. I made a joke, see? See? While complaining about generalising, I used 'always' and therefore generalised myself. Geddit? I meant it as a joke.

I even added a smiley! What is supposed to better indicate a joke on a messageboard than a smiley?! What, I ask you?

It is so uncool having to explain your own jokes... They're not that bad!

Honest!

*goes off moping in corner that no one gets her jokes*

Fne!

Spock · 05-28-2005, 09:10 AM

..now you have a taste of what I go through on a daily basis.

Thanks.

Spock · 05-30-2005, 10:05 AM

French Voters Soundly Reject European Union Constitution

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/30/in...html?th&emc=th

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-30-2005, 10:11 AM

the EU as we know it is no more

with a french Non!, there is not really any point in a UK referendum, especially as the dutch are likely to go no also

***Earniel*** · 05-30-2005, 02:48 PM

I wonder why Chirac thought he could persuade the French to vote 'oui', after all they don't like him that much. And will he step down now like he said? (That would have been enough reasons to vote no, if you ask me.

) Oh, well at least the French got to vote on it, unlike some other nations...

I think the whole deal about the Bolkenstein-guideline did the European Constitution a lot of damage. Some really bad timing (and not a very bright idea either).

I don't think it there's no point in the other referenda. (mind your steps, there's a double negation in there). It might not be bad for other countries to know their people's stance it. Especially in the light of how we must continue now. Do you think there will be an attempt to rewrite the constitution or will they put it on ice for the moment?

sun-star · 05-30-2005, 03:29 PM

Did Belgium not get a referendum? A UK referendum would be great, and was promised, but Blair is backpedalling now and talking about 'time for reflection' instead.

Sadly, I don't think the result in France will make much difference. The EU has never been about following the will of the people - politicians decide first and get a mandate later. As in previous referendums which have produced 'no' results (Nice, Maastricht) they'll fiddle with the constitution until they can put it to the vote again and get a narrow 'yes'.

***Earniel*** · 05-30-2005, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sun-star

Did Belgium not get a referendum?

Nope. The socialists decided we weren't up to it.

But also, to be a fair, I seem to remember it also required an amendment to our constitution since we never held a referendum and there is no legal basis for it in our legisation. Not entirely sure, though.

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-30-2005, 05:46 PM

i think that it should have been accepted regardless, the public are never informed enough to make sensible political decisions, and never are people farsighted enough, people just don't understand politics, which is why we get some of the weird governments that we get (like the pseudo-tory blair getting elected as a labour PM

)

Janny · 05-30-2005, 06:01 PM

I recall something similar happening with the Constituent Assembly under Lenin. :P

It's supposedly the greatest democratic experiment (or something) and it would be a little ironic if it were imposed upon a disapproving public...

Last Child of Ungoliant · 05-30-2005, 06:03 PM

even if the majority of the public are too thick, to put it plainly, to even understand that it is for their own good?

Spock · 05-30-2005, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

i think that it should have been accepted regardless, the public are never informed enough to make sensible political decisions, and never are people farsighted enough, people just don't understand politics, )

und morgen die Welt!

The Gaffer · 05-31-2005, 03:56 AM

Personally, I don't think people are that stupid, LCoU. They might have the wrong information or the wrong reasons, though. In this case, I think a lot of people voted against the constitution because they wanted to give their politicians a bloody nose.

I'm hopeful that this "non" vote will result in a better Europe. Who knows? Maybe the EU will have to take its democratic deficit more seriously from now on.

Elvellon · 05-31-2005, 11:55 AM

We are still going to have a referendum here. (Portugal).

As I perceive it, our “enlightened” EU politicians are now wondering what way to go next. Likely, it will depend of the level of support/opposition they can garner elsewhere, in other countries (hence the importance of other referendums). A large consensus for the constitutional letter could result in a reformulation of it, with some extras “goodies” to attract the reluctant, while a large opposition could effectively close the process, for now.

In any case. As I see it, the triumph of the No doesn’t bring change, on the contrary, will mean more of the same.

Janny · 05-31-2005, 03:08 PM

I like this question of how to 'interpret' the no vote.

For clues, refer to a dictionary. Do NOT ask Mr. Juncker.

Nerdanel · 06-26-2005, 07:46 PM

link

I love Berlusconi..XD

05-27-2005, 02:01 PM	#121
Telcontar_Dunedain Warrior of the House of Hador Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 4,651	You think it is wrong to have expectations? __________________ Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230

05-27-2005, 03:23 PM	#123
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Well I expect MY OWN government (speaking as an american here...) to be far and away the number one aid giver in the world. Anything less is unnaceptable in my opinion considering our standard of living here. And no I dont care about the standard of living in Quatar or Belgium or any other country that does pretty well here. Its my tax money and I can expect it to be used for good around the globe if I want to. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."

05-27-2005, 05:40 PM	#125
inked Elf Lord Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol Posts: 3,114	Well, perhaps there's been more success than ya'll realize! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...628272,00.html What's the likely impact? __________________ Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941

05-28-2005, 09:10 AM	#127
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	..now you have a taste of what I go through on a daily basis. Thanks. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

05-30-2005, 10:05 AM	#128
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	nouvelles fantastiques French Voters Soundly Reject European Union Constitution http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/30/in...html?th&emc=th __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

05-27-2005, 03:51 PM	#124
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	i expect developed nations to give aid freely to developing nations, based on the value of the 1st world's economy, compared to that of the thirld world country, populations, and need, and, IMO, i do not think it is wrong for this expectation, that which would cause an end to human suffering, if however people dont agree with ending suffering, well, what more can i do....?

05-30-2005, 10:11 AM	#129
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	the EU as we know it is no more with a french Non!, there is not really any point in a UK referendum, especially as the dutch are likely to go no also

05-30-2005, 02:48 PM	#130
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I wonder why Chirac thought he could persuade the French to vote 'oui', after all they don't like him that much. And will he step down now like he said? (That would have been enough reasons to vote no, if you ask me. ) Oh, well at least the French got to vote on it, unlike some other nations... I think the whole deal about the Bolkenstein-guideline did the European Constitution a lot of damage. Some really bad timing (and not a very bright idea either). I don't think it there's no point in the other referenda. (mind your steps, there's a double negation in there). It might not be bad for other countries to know their people's stance it. Especially in the light of how we must continue now. Do you think there will be an attempt to rewrite the constitution or will they put it on ice for the moment? __________________ We are not things.

05-30-2005, 03:29 PM	#131
sun-star Lady of Letters Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England Posts: 2,476	Did Belgium not get a referendum? A UK referendum would be great, and was promised, but Blair is backpedalling now and talking about 'time for reflection' instead. Sadly, I don't think the result in France will make much difference. The EU has never been about following the will of the people - politicians decide first and get a mandate later. As in previous referendums which have produced 'no' results (Nice, Maastricht) they'll fiddle with the constitution until they can put it to the vote again and get a narrow 'yes'. __________________ And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool.

05-30-2005, 05:46 PM	#133
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	i think that it should have been accepted regardless, the public are never informed enough to make sensible political decisions, and never are people farsighted enough, people just don't understand politics, which is why we get some of the weird governments that we get (like the pseudo-tory blair getting elected as a labour PM )

05-30-2005, 06:01 PM	#134
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	I recall something similar happening with the Constituent Assembly under Lenin. :P It's supposedly the greatest democratic experiment (or something) and it would be a little ironic if it were imposed upon a disapproving public... __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

05-30-2005, 06:03 PM	#135
Last Child of Ungoliant The Intermittent One Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: here and there Posts: 4,671	even if the majority of the public are too thick, to put it plainly, to even understand that it is for their own good?

05-31-2005, 03:56 AM	#137
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Personally, I don't think people are that stupid, LCoU. They might have the wrong information or the wrong reasons, though. In this case, I think a lot of people voted against the constitution because they wanted to give their politicians a bloody nose. I'm hopeful that this "non" vote will result in a better Europe. Who knows? Maybe the EU will have to take its democratic deficit more seriously from now on.

05-31-2005, 11:55 AM	#138
Elvellon Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Lindon Posts: 637	We are still going to have a referendum here. (Portugal). As I perceive it, our “enlightened” EU politicians are now wondering what way to go next. Likely, it will depend of the level of support/opposition they can garner elsewhere, in other countries (hence the importance of other referendums). A large consensus for the constitutional letter could result in a reformulation of it, with some extras “goodies” to attract the reluctant, while a large opposition could effectively close the process, for now. In any case. As I see it, the triumph of the No doesn’t bring change, on the contrary, will mean more of the same. __________________ **************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion

05-31-2005, 03:08 PM	#139
Janny The Blobbit Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...) Posts: 1,596	I like this question of how to 'interpret' the no vote. For clues, refer to a dictionary. Do NOT ask Mr. Juncker. __________________ Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton.

06-26-2005, 07:46 PM	#140
Nerdanel Spammer of the Happy Thread Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 3,512	link I love Berlusconi..XD __________________ "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. " - C. Sagan My (photography) website My Flickr page

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