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07-03-2004, 07:17 PM | #121 | |
Elven Warrior
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07-04-2004, 09:15 AM | #122 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
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Hmmm, "anti-taking of life"....I called that "Anti-killing"! Do you think there is a difference Hemel?
I am anti-killing for "life/potential life" (zygotes, fetuses) but for some reason, have no problem (well there is always *some* problem with killing, ) with killing "well" convicted pre-meditated, multiple and/or particularly gruesome murderers. I see that "life-taking" (or killing) as deserved punishment. I know, I know...who decides, and all that....but anyway, I realize I am not consistent on my anti-killing stance. It is intentional. The killing of a new, ("potential" in the fact that it needs to be "grown") unique, ripe with promise combination of human chromosones, that is actively dividing and growing at breakneck speed, seems somehow unfair. On the side of the potential new human...what has it done any differently than other humans to lose its chance at life? The stopping of the moving life force seems like killing, and if done for convenience (the mother or father simply don't want it) I feel bad, and want to say DON'T. Of course, I then say, use birth control, don't "start" life, then stop it. Anyway..."anti-life taking" ......use of words to sound *less* sad/shocking. "Anti-killing" ......use of words (for the same idea ...right?) to sound *more* sad/shocking....so there you go! added: hope you didn't read this before my many edits! Last edited by Lizra : 07-05-2004 at 08:24 AM. |
07-04-2004, 09:55 AM | #123 | |
Elven Warrior
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Good grief! Talk about semantics!
Thinking through a good point here - is 'killing' different from 'taking'? From the top of my head then - yes, there must have been some reason why I chose the one term over the other. Perhaps I do have have an unstated unconscious horror about taking lives that I don't easily use a word like 'killing'. Perhaps too it's because the concept is maybe broader - like 'killing' somehow seems more active and in some ways more individualistic or individualised than 'taking life'. Also because there are ways of taking life without actually killing - like maybe signing a death warrant or passing a death sentence ... or maybe even through acceptance allowing others to die (maybe an example here would be the inequitable access to food throughout the globe). Um ... trying desperately here to stay on 'terms' rather than actually 'abortion' - so very quickly - you then perhaps are accessing an innocent/not innocent discourse in your stance on killing? Which I think maybe is consistent - even though the results seem not so (some lives taken, some not). And for this Quote:
I have some troubles over the idea of potential human life also - but that again goes into abortion (and threatens to be a HUGE can of wriggly worms ) so I'll back off that one sharpish (and no - came in after you'd finished editing ) |
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07-04-2004, 09:59 AM | #124 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
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Well, I suppose life will never be "fair"!
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07-04-2004, 06:53 PM | #125 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Now that I've been thinking about it ... it could just have been a response to the 'pro-life' term that IR used. So I sort of came up with 'anti-taking-life' .... probably because 'anti-life' doesn't seem to have much to recommend it as a stance!
Hey ho ... the simplest answers are the best ... (though why they always take me hours of thought to get there I'll never know! ) |
07-05-2004, 04:16 AM | #126 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I agree with you that most people probably feel deep down that the foetus is a kind of person, and not just a cluster of cells. On the other hand, I think that almost everyone's behaviour acknowledges, however implicitly, that defining the starting point for life is, at least in part, a medical issue. |
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07-07-2004, 04:37 PM | #127 | |
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Narnia
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Quote:
People put up big fights about their right not to see the graphic pictures. They argue about how they were forced to see them (they actually weren't, there were signs posted about them being displayed back before you got to them). But then what about freedom of speech? You are "forced" to hear someone expressing their views when you walk by them. Its no different. Umm...follow the link in my sig to see some pics.
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07-07-2004, 05:02 PM | #128 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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personally, i have no problem with any kind of pictures... or any other expression of opinion from either side, as long as they stay within the realm of what is legal
that said, i think the most extreme on either side need to realize that both pov's can be reasonably justified in their own way, and that the true solution lies in preventing the unwanted pregnancy in the first place... which is where birth control and education come in (every form of education... from abstinance to the 'real life' sex that goes on as early as middle school, and few adults are willing to address realistically) i think if every child was given free access and complete education about sex at the age before the age when it becomes an option... we'd stop thousands of unwanted pregnancies
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07-22-2004, 10:20 AM | #129 |
Elf Lord
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What do people think about the UK Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority's decision to relax the rules on screening embryos for compatibility with a sick sibling?
Link to the story on the BBC site |
07-22-2004, 06:34 PM | #130 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What do YOU think about it?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-23-2004, 02:26 AM | #131 |
the Shrike
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I think it's a bloody good idea, personally. (quick replying!)
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07-23-2004, 09:41 AM | #132 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I think that it's another example of how, by our behaviour, we clearly define embryos as qualitatively different from neonates. |
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07-23-2004, 07:55 PM | #133 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Personally, I think any type of optional abortion is wrong.
However, if a person is for allowing optional abortions, then I don't see why they would logically object to embryo screening. To stay logically consistent, tho, I don't see why they would have a logical reason to object to killing adults, either - a fetus that's wanted is a baby, and a fetus that is NOT wanted is NOT a baby, and can be aborted. I don't see why the same reasoning shouldn't be applied to adults - an adult that is wanted by society is human, and one that isn't wanted by society is - not, and no one should object if, say, their son decides to kill them because he wants their money. To me, it's logically inconsistent to differentiate. If morals are just a product of our times, then I think it's logically inconsistent to object to killing unwanted adults, and NOT object to killing unwanted babies. However, I believe that morals are NOT just a product of our times (altho they may "play out" differently in different times and societies, the base morals are the same, because they come from a God that doesn't change) - so it makes sense that humans object, in their hearts, to killing a person, and obviously feel bad about abortion, even if they call it anything but a baby. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-23-2004 at 07:56 PM. |
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07-23-2004, 08:33 PM | #134 | |
Quasi Evil
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Quote:
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07-24-2004, 01:02 AM | #135 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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To me, capital punishment and abortion are two totally different things.
Abortion is one person getting rid of a baby they don't want. There is no regard for the baby's personhood or humanness. The abortion is not a consequence of any action by the baby. Capital punishment is society (as opposed to a single person) applying a consequence, which is known beforehand, for a terrible act, such as murder or torture, that a person chooses to commit. There is a VERY high regard for the personhood of both the victim and the perpetrator; there are extensive and careful trials, and the sentence, if it is passed, is carried out in solemnity and with regard to the dignity of the perpetrator, but it is carried out because the personhood of the victim has been intentionally violated, and personhood is a sacred thing and there must be serious consequences for destroying it. I don't see any logical inconsistencies there.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-24-2004 at 01:04 AM. |
07-24-2004, 04:51 AM | #136 | |||
Elven Warrior
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I see inconsistencies. That's because both involve taking a human life (albeit the unborn human could be considered as 'potential' human life.) So I don't see how one can advocate one (capital) and yet not the other.
I also don't see that 'personhood' is a sacred thing. For example, in legal terms over here a company is a 'person' ... but I don't see that that makes the company sacred. Instead it just makes it something that can be dealt with by law, which is where I understood the concept of 'personhood' originated.) So I see a difference between human life and personhood ... as interest, then, do you equate them, R*an, or also see differences Oh dear, I suppose I have to respond to this bit ... Quote:
And edited to pick up on this bit .... Quote:
But this .... Quote:
Last edited by Hemel : 07-24-2004 at 05:02 AM. |
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