Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
BoP - shall I PM you with the answer to what Morgoth's ring is, or do you want to find out yourself? (And Eärniel, too, if you're interested).

Oh no. Thanks, but no. I'd prefer to be pleasantly/unpleasantly surprised when I read the book. But feel free to discuss it here... with those spoilers I showed you to use!

[Rían]

okay - have fun, you lucky dogs! why, oh why are they $30 each!!

[BeardofPants]

$30... each?

On amazon they're cheaper - you can get two books for that price. Here in New Zealand they're about US $17.

[Rían]

I might have to break down and try Amazon. I've been working with computers for so long that I don't trust them at all, and have never bought anything over the Internet. Thanks for the info

[Earniel]

Well, since I only own BOLT1-2 and Morgoth's ring for the moment, I'm facing another dilemma when I finished BOLT of whether to buy the 8 intermediate books and read them or whether then to read Morgoth's ring. It'll be a tough discussion with my wallet and the calendar (christmas, new year, birthdays.... you catch the drift).

$ 30 each!? That's much. I got them at somewhat between €18 and €20. They come with such beautiful covers... *sigh dreamily*

Thanks for the offer, RÃ*an but I think I'm going to try and find it out on my own.

I may be senile by then.

Don't worry, we'll come and visit you at the old folk's home. And if my wallet and the calendar defeat me, I'll be able to read it sooner.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Mine were only $30.00 each for the last three volumes that were nowhere to be found in paperback. I bought them at Borders, one at a time. The other five volumes I bought there in paperback at $6.00 each, so in the end, not so bad. I wish I could afford all of them in hardbound.

[Utumno]

I saw mention of this thread elsewhere.

The Athrabeth is the second part of HoMe that I read (after FoG in BoLT2). I did so because I am such a Finrod fanatic, and I expected the Athrabeth to amaze me. Well I was blwon away by it, and especially by Finrod. The whole bit about Aegnor was a surprise to me. I had gussed at something like that. I was thinking rather that Andreth might love Finrod (who wouldn't?), but it was still a surprise about Aegnor.

As for the Moth and flame comment, I had a different interpretation of that. I viewed moths as the entire race of men, rather than just Andreth.

I think it is to say that men do not understand that elves do eventually end, whereas men leave Arda and go off to do who knows what. I think it all about the gift death that men deem a doom.


Sometimes I wonder, was there ever a chance that men would not have turned away from the voice of Iluvatar and followed evil? I doubt it.

I have go to run now, But I'll comment on more of this thread later.

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Actually, I never used to like blonde guys, but I guess I changed in my old age. However, now, I only like blonde guys if they are Elves. I think I like Finrod for many reasons, not just because he is hot, but he had such a gracious nature. He was so noble and powerful, and yet very down to earth and acted like he was just a normal guy. He did not flaunt his royalty, and yet ruled the largest kingdom with sterness. He was also such a smart guy. God, I wish he was real.

I could say all of those things myself, except perhaps old age.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Utumno
Sometimes I wonder, was there ever a chance that men would not have turned away from the voice of Iluvatar and followed evil? I doubt it.

I wonder too. The Noldor knew the Valar, they had seen them and lived among them, and had seen the light of the trees. Whereas Men had to do with rumours and faith. Also, the voice of Iluvatar could have been more frightening than comforting for Men.

The 'Fall of Men' part is so interesting because this is the only time we hear about any myth from Men's point of view, all the other stories are mythology and history as seen by the Elves. And the myths of Men are much more likely to be forgotten, or changed through generations, than are myths of Elves. Even Andreth and Adanel have different stories to tell.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Utumno
I think it is to say that men do not understand that elves do eventually end, whereas men leave Arda and go off to do who knows what. I think it all about the gift death that men deem a doom.

I agree...Elves and Men often envied each others gifts. If Malkor hadn't corrupted the race of men, I wonder what would have happened then? Were they destined to fall? Was that in the music of the ainur?

[Artanis]

SGH mentioned in another thread that Aegnor would not return from the Halls of Mandos, for the sake of his love for Andreth. If that was really his choice, did it imply some fault or taint in his fëa, as was said by some of the Valar about Miriel when she chose not to return? The separation of fëa and rhöa was considered unnatural for an Elf.

I seem to be obsessed by death these days ...

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Artanis
SGH mentioned in another thread that Aegnor would not return from the Halls of Mandos, for the sake of his love for Andreth. If that was really his choice, did it imply some fault or taint in his fëa, as was said by some of the Valar about Miriel when she chose not to return? The separation of fëa and rhöa was considered unnatural for an Elf.

I seem to be obsessed ny death these days ...

Maybe he knew that elves shouldn't wed with men because they are destined to be apart...to long for different things.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Maybe he knew that elves shouldn't wed with men because they are destined to be apart...to long for different things.

Yes, but it seems that he wasn't able to return to life knowing that Andreth would die and go beyond. He could not bear to live in the world without her.

Artanis, that is a good question. His final choice surely does go against what the Eldar believed. It does say though, that re-embodiment was a choice and not a requirement. Confusing.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Yes, but it seems that he wasn't able to return to life knowing that Andreth would die and go beyond. He could not bear to live in the world without her.

Artanis, that is a good question. His final choice surely does go against what the Eldar believed. It does say though, that re-embodiment was a choice and not a requirement. Confusing.

Perhaps being without his hroa was less painful than living with it but being without his true love. Don't the elves choose their mates early in their existence?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
Perhaps being without his hroa was less painful than living with it but being without his true love. Don't the elves choose their mates early in their existence?

Usually they choose in childhood, but that is elf and elf. Aegnor apparently had never chose a mate, and he fell in love with Andreth.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Artanis, that is a good question. His final choice surely does go against what the Eldar believed. It does say though, that re-embodiment was a choice and not a requirement. Confusing.

Isn't re-embodiment a choice because all creatures always have a choice, to do what is right or not? Like when an Elf is slain, the spirit is summoned to Mandos, not commanded there. The Elf may choose to refuse to go to Mandos, still that would be regarded as a fault in their fëa.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Artanis
Isn't re-embodiment a choice because all creatures always have a choice, to do what is right or not? Like when an Elf is slain, the spirit is summoned to Mandos, not commanded there. The Elf may choose to refuse to go to Mandos, still that would be regarded as a fault in their fëa.

I think that refusing the summons of Mandos would imply a more tainted fea than refusing re-embodiment. To refuse the summons would mean being a mischievious little ghost until the end of Arda. Just to refuse re-embodiment would mean being restricted to the Halls of Mandos and just meditating til the end. Doesn't Ls and Cs state something about these things not being considered wicked, but did imply a taint in the spirit, or was that talking about willful death?

[Artanis]

I found this in Ls & Cs about refusing resurrection:

Moreover, some fear in grief or weariness gave up hope, and turning away from life relinquished their bodies, even though these might have been healed or were indeed unhurt.+(37)
(+ Though the griefs might be great and wholly unmerited, and death (or rather the abandonment of life) might be, therefore, understandable and innocent, it was held that the refusal to return to life, after repose in Mandos, was a fault, showing a weakness or lack of courage in the fea.)

And this about refusing the summons:

But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalie in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons of Mandos, and wander houseless in the world,* unwilling to leave it (40) and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew. Not all of these are kindly or unstained by the Shadow. Indeed the refusal of the summons is in itself a sign of taint.

I think refusing the summons is implying a fault because a fëa must first go to Mandos before it can be reunited with its rhöa. A wish of the fëa to stay or become separated from the rhöa is considered to originate from the Marring.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Poor Aegnor.

[Artanis]

Yep, he may, after all, have had a harder time than Andreth.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Bumped fpr further discussion.