01-13-2003, 07:59 PM | #121 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Messianic Judaism...don't get me started with messianic Judaism. It's a scam to fool the innocent. If people want to preach more power to them, but no need to be so coy about it. Jews have enough troubles to deal with.
I might not share your beliefs, but I must admit,your compassion is impressive-it reveals genuine faith. Though being Jewish it's nice to know we don't need to worry about that-it's fairly easy for non-Jews to get a positive afterlife experience.
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01-13-2003, 08:10 PM | #122 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Though I must admit I'm curious, I don't think we should start up another discussion in this thread, so I'll leave it be.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-13-2003, 08:27 PM | #123 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Murrains and authority ...
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A murrain on thee and thy plans, churl! 'Tho thou wieldest Andúril, know thee that mine hubby has one big honkin' machete from the wilds of South America, where he grew up (and a cool bolt-action .22 from his grandfather) and knows well how to use it! (and my oldest son has a 66-inch, 23-pound recurve bow and is very good with it - better than I am, the stinker!) Mend thy foolish ways, varlet, or thou shalt find thyself with some big ouchies!! And your comment was a good intro to a rabbit trail that I intended to take a quick visit to today, before venturing further down the main track, explaining why I keep bringing up the authority thing (which I've done on purpose, for a very good reason IMHO)... [rabbittrail] As I said before, I have ZERO interest in debate, but a lot of interest in learning things, getting to know people better, and sharing some truths that have been tremendously important to me. One of the things that I've been praying for over the last 3 years or so was that God would help me to please HIM, and not be bound up in the people-pleasing trap that is so destructive to be in. (BTW, this does NOT mean that I don't try to please people - it just means that I don't feel compelled to base my actions on what people think.) God has really done tremendous things for me in this area, and I'm so grateful (and BTW, typically when one tries to please God, one ends up pleasing people, too - after all, things like "love your neighbor as yourself" and "consider others' needs as more important than your own" are all over the Bible). Not too many years ago, I would have been cowed by someone speaking in an authoritative manner, such as Andúril has in these threads, especially early on (and I don't mean that as an insult, Andúril - I think you just naturally do that from your debating background), and I would have backed down in fear from any argument, or felt compelled to comply with whatever he suggested. Now, however, because my goal is to please God, I can step back and evaluate things properly before I take action. When Andúril said "Therefore, either you will provide some other reason(s) to support your claim of irrationality, or you will drop it.", as he did a few pages ago on this thread, my old response would have been "OMGoodness, I better do that!". Now, however, I can look at that statement and think "well, does he have any authority over me to tell me what to do here?" The answer is no - he is only a fellow Entmooter. The only responsibility I have to him is to treat him with respect. (BTW, the Entmoot admins and mods have limited authority over me (I granted them this when I signed up for Entmoot and agreed to abide by their rules); if they ask me to do anything that conflicts with my convictions, I can respectfully decline; if they insist, then I would leave Entmoot, and they would no longer have authority over me. Thread starters have a little authority, too - that's why I started this thread, to comply with the previous thread starter's wishes.) Anyway, when I told him that I didn't intend to do what he said I had to do (in his opinion), because I felt that I had other options open to me (although I don't think I said that then), he said that he only meant to tell me the options he thought I had. However, I didn't agree that the options he said I had were the only options that were open to me, and I pointed out that I had already explained why I thought his reply was irrational anyway, but he had missed it; so I took another course of action, which was to ask him if we could drop the point, since it started from a misunderstanding and it wasn't important to the main discussion anyway. He agreed, and we dropped it. (this is what happened to the best of my memory - please feel free to offer corrections if you think it needs it, Andúril.) So all that to encourage anyone that is kind of scared by people who speak authoritatively to stop and think if that person actually has authority over you - if not, then you are absolutely free to decline what they suggest/demand and go with what you think is the right thing to do. [/rabbittrail]
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-13-2003 at 08:45 PM. |
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01-13-2003, 11:46 PM | #124 | ||
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After a day of computer problems, I finally get a chance to reply to some things.
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"If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you." Gandalf to Pippin Psalm 107:31 |
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01-14-2003, 12:09 AM | #125 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I could be wrong, but I think that the point about the people on the desert island and Abraham was that one could come to acknowledge God without a local pastor/church, not that it had been done in the past.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-14-2003, 01:13 AM | #126 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, that was my point. I'm willing to bet my copy of LoTR that Earniel was making a joke (a funny play on the words in my post, bringing together my comments about Abraham and my comments on the people in the desert island scenario). My discussion on how it is possible for people to be saved before Jesus was born would also apply to those unfortunate denizens of the desert islands in the time of Abraham, just the same as their land-locked fellow humans and those on desert islands after the time of Abraham.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-14-2003, 01:55 AM | #127 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, if I offended you, I'm very sorry. I'm wrong often enough. *sigh* I'm pretty smart in a rather narrow field, and pretty dense in many other ways (geography and history, especially - truly frightening how badly I get mixed up )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-14-2003, 02:51 AM | #128 | ||
The Original Corruptor
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Nevertheless, I'd like you to elaborate on the concepts. Distinguishing between a sense of "doing anything" and a sense of "having all power" seems, at a preliminary viewing, to be bordering on a game of semantics. There may be something there, but I think you could have been a little less vague. Once you have done this, I should be able to respond to the rest of your post. |
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01-14-2003, 03:11 AM | #129 | |||||
The Original Corruptor
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This is going to hurt, innit? Excellent! Quote:
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01-14-2003, 04:03 AM | #130 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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But, seeing as I don't plan on accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior, I'd best get back to arranging that cook-out in Hell with my friends . . .and another question: doesn't it differ among the various sects of Christianity, who gets to go to Heaven and who doesn't? I recall something about the Puritans believing only certain people were pre-ordained for Heaven and everyone else is doomed.
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01-14-2003, 04:57 AM | #131 | ||||||||||||
The Original Corruptor
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Anyway, did you follow the link I included in a reply to BoP? Those are the definitions I use. Quote:
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I am pursuing a degree in Theology in order to become more informed (thus keeping misrepresentation of theological issues to a minimum), and to lend weight to my arguments. In the words of a Christian author (to me): An atheist with a B.Th under his belt would be positively deadly. The unfortunate aspect about the UNISA (University of South Africa) curriculum is that it is "outcomes-based" and all the assignments I have looked at so far require the point-of-view of a Christian, i.e. "How do these issues affect your faith on a day to day basis", etc. I wonder if they've ever had a non-believer study through them... I intend on obtaining a doctorate in Theology, but it is early days. Appendix Quote:
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01-14-2003, 05:37 AM | #132 | ||||||||
The Original Corruptor
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01-14-2003, 09:50 AM | #133 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Sorry, but that's the best definition I can come up with. To Rian: Yes
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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01-14-2003, 09:52 AM | #134 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Upon re-reading, I realized taht part of my post could be interpreted in a way I certainly did not mean for it to be; when I said that I doubt any one else understands what I mean, I do NOT, by any means mean that the fault lies with them; rather, with my own inability to express my meaning.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
01-14-2003, 10:19 AM | #135 | ||||
The Original Corruptor
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In any event, I agree with you when you express your doubts as to whether anyone else knows what you mean. Quote:
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01-14-2003, 01:08 PM | #136 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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We are not things. |
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01-14-2003, 02:46 PM | #137 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Oh, sorry, Eärniel - I thought my post addressed that question well enough, but I guess not. Can I keep my LoTR anyway, pretty please?? I guess I was thinking of another thread awhile back, "Did Iluvatar make Melkor Evil", where (IIRC) I addressed that issue at great length. However, since it appears that I sometimes DON"T "IIRC", I'll quote what I wrote back a few pages ago:
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The reason I gave Abraham as an example is that we have it on the authority of the Bible that Abraham was saved -- and he lived before Jesus was born, and couldn't have known Jesus!. So it can't be true that only those born after Jesus was born can be saved. Does that make sense? Now I'll try to explain how I believe that works. I think where the misunderstanding arises is that you see verses like the ones I listed earlier: Quote:
A complimentary verse shows how Abraham was saved (emphasis is mine for clarity): Quote:
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I better stop now, this is getting tremendously long, and I'm afraid not terribly coherent; I don't write as well as Tolkien does! I hope it's a good starting point, though, to answer your question, and please let me know what needs clarifying.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 01-14-2003 at 03:21 PM. |
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01-14-2003, 03:48 PM | #138 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I'm sorry RÃ*an, I did see your previous post but I interpretted it differently. You can keep your LoTR though. I'm not that evil.
Your new post gave me an answer but it also raises other questions. Now if I understand correctly this time people (any time any place but I'll leave that out for now) who do not know God or the bible can be saved since in a way they will know him through nature, moral codes, ect... That implies that they might know God in another context than the bible since they don't know the bible. Then how can you be sure that for instance the god of the jews or islamites isn't the christian god in another context? How can you be sure that they are disbelievers and will go to hell?
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01-14-2003, 03:57 PM | #139 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What I dislike, as I said earlier, is debate for debate's sake (and I should have worded it that way in my post - but I just said 'debate' this time - lazy me!). IOW, although I haven't participated in formal debates, I see plenty of them, and one thing that really irks me is that minor points often obscure the major issues. I think the expression "straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel" is often applicable to the debates I've seen. That's why I prefer what I call "discussion", which is courteous as well as logical, but the GOAL is to learn, and we can drop points, even if we disagree, that we feel are not furthering the goal. (We've already done this, BTW, and I'm glad that we can). I feel that there are so many little 'nits' to clear up in the discussion between the two of us that we will never get down to anything of much import because of the sheer amount of verbiage we have to wade through first. That's why I tried to 'clear off' some of the points where we differed - not because I couldn't defend my side, but because I felt that they were not of consequence, and I'm trying to get to things that are. We still haven't even TOUCHED the atheism/belief system thing, and I feel that there's still a ton of things I have to clear up. BTW, your story on the "ghost" thread was hysterically funny!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-14-2003, 04:09 PM | #140 | |
The Original Corruptor
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